RSVP Blog

Aunty kaz - It can be emasculating to some people. I really thiunk it depends on how they were brought up(friends,family, etc.) Like for instance my dad. A Veitnam veteran, He's 60 this year, and i have never once seen him cry, nor has my mum. Even though they have been seperated for the last 10years, i am the only one of his sons he expresses he's feeling to. I beleive because he would find it emasculating to express to a female, having said that, i feel that it is emasculating for me to express mine to a female. I think it comes down to the fact that there was so much emphasis in our society that men are supposed to be tough, and go and fight wars and things like that. Whereas now, in modern days society, i feel men are being pushed aside by women and only being objectified when needed. Im not talking about all females, it was a generalisation. Im all for equallity between genders, but i think it has become a bit of a joke really, men are being out wieghed in population and significance on earth.

Posted by: metalscott at August 20, 2008 1:41 PM

Forevernow - Its funny that no one seems to realise that it takes more than 1 brick to build a wall until some one points it out,lol.

WnW - My picture was actually deleted, someone must have thought it was offensive,lol.

Stu - Thanks for the kind welcome,hahaha. I do think it is the "Sex and the City" age, but everyone(men and women included) seems to put too much emphasis on the fact that if the sex isnt mindblowing, they simply cant have any intamacy. I think even if the sex is either awkward, or not so great, that given the right person, you can have a chat or even just an inside joke, which i think would give a great boost to a relationship, given that both parties would take it constructively

Posted by: metalscott at August 20, 2008 1:21 PM

Posted by: timewarp1 at August 19, 2008 11:50 PM

"So I think I better have another look at my own profile this weekend."

Warper, why change something that has been so successful and led to hundreds of dates. As the old advertising slogan goes... when you are onto a good thing stick to it.

There is, however, one marketing concept that you may find useful. It is called cognitive dissonance. It occurs when consumer expectation created by publicity and advertising is not met when the consumer actually uses the product.
rgds grego

Posted by: grego7 at August 20, 2008 1:17 PM

Posted by: laughsandtalks at August 19, 2008 10:58 PM

Marcus,

I could not help being taken aback by your comments:

" a gushy idealised female model of intimacy at the expense or compromise of his masculine" and "The creeping feminisation of human sexuality is corrosive and damaging and confusing for boys and men."

What extraordinary if simplistic generalisations. For a woman one of the most intimate and loving things for a man to do is let his guard down and tell her of his fears and apirations. Men are conditioned by background, schooling and perhaps even nature to be reserved about their innermost feelings.

Our society has developed beyond the time when the strong silent action guy was an asset. In an information age such people are an impediment not an advanatge.

From your various diatribes I gather your idea of intimacy appears to be a post coital "was it good for you too, dear" and whilst sex without intimacy is perfunctionary there is far more to intimacy than sex. Indeed very intimate moments may not involve physical sexualisation at all. It has been noted on this blog that few partnered people are making comments on intimacy and Waterbombe gave one reason for it. Unsaid was what averyone knows who has been in or is in an intimate relationship, that many intimate things only make sense to the intimate partners themselves. They may sound trivial or innocuous in print.

I doubt if any woman thinks the man that she loves is less of a man because he has been "too" intimate.
rgds grego

Posted by: grego7 at August 20, 2008 12:26 PM

Ok, what do we know about brick walls? Well, I am in the building industry and I know for a fact that it takes more then one brick to build a wall. And I guess it is the same when considering tearing one down. A brick wall is built over time and many experiences that we are mostly fearful of repeating. Sometimes it is to keep people out, but mostly it is a safety issue, and to keep us safe from further pain. The best way to tear down a brick wall in this instance is with love, patience, support and understanding. And know that you may never reap the benefits but someday someone will. In the case of building your own wall, don’t give yourself permit to build one in the first place. Remember one brick at a time and before you know it we have boundaries, we don’t need or want!

Posted by: forevernow1 at August 20, 2008 12:22 PM

I like the wiki definition of intimacy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intimacy
It seems to encompass what I take it to mean.
Woodnwine, I would have to say that at times I am terrified of real intimacy, especially with a man. You become very vulnerable and quite open to rejection, as you say. No one likes rejection, but some can tolerate or deal with it better than others.
Intimacy with friends develops nicely over time as you get together, for whatever reasons, have conversations and get to know each other. It is usually never forced and just develops...or not.
I think that in relationships, between a man and woman, that one partner can try to force the intimacy issue and this is when the other does a runner. No one has to talk about their feelings. It never means that you don't have them. Everyone has them...When it is expected to share them, because someone else wants intimacy, then it is forced and not one bit intimate. Some people just love to share their feelings... all the time and others don't always want to know. I think it is these people who force issues that could develop if just left alone and watered by friendship and getting to know people slowly but surely...intimacy in some form always develops then.

...and following on from WnW's suggestion, Bill, maybe you could update your pics and have a body shot...like you tell others to:))

Posted by: istj54 at August 20, 2008 12:18 PM

willow29 at August 20, 2008 6:59 AM:

That's right. In fact, I just wrote the music and lyrics for a new song this morning on the way to work (OK, it did take me a while to get to work...)

Reading all these blogs is a bit more emotionally intense than my regular life, and in small doses is probably good for the old creative process. The content of the song, by the way, is unrelated to any of the discussions going on here. When I get around to recording it, I'm going to need to find some black female soul singers for the chorus, though, and I gather they don't come cheap. :)

Posted by: drone at August 20, 2008 12:18 PM

Posted by: creativestuart at August 20, 2008 10:13 AM:

I see where you are coming from. But as long as it is possible for a lot of people to go on a lot of dates in a small period of time, they will do so, and this means that the "chemistry" thing is automatically prioritised.

Posted by: drone at August 20, 2008 12:11 PM

timewarper - if you are changing your profile, I'd certainly drop the reference to how many RSVP profiles you've been through , it makes you sound a bit cheap/desperate/methodical. No offense meant Bill.

Posted by: woodnwine at August 20, 2008 10:30 AM

metalscott - have to agree about feeling like a pice of meat. Also, glad to see you've changed your photo .... that T shirt worried me (maybe unnecessarily).

willow - yes, men write incredibly sad songs so obviously have the same feelings but maybe they don't often have someone to express them to .... women usually have a support network whereas men usually don't.

Posted by: woodnwine at August 20, 2008 10:27 AM

posted by woody 10:37pm:
"Why do people put up brick walls? What are they afriad of? Rejection? Maybe ......"

Because they haven't delt with their bagage, have been hurt by a past relationship or player. They are so afraid of being hurt, they won't allow anyone to get close.

Unfortunately until the wall is down they will never find a new relationship and will only end up hurting any genuine person who tries to develop one with them.

Posted by: creativestuart at August 20, 2008 10:24 AM

piscesgirl56 at August 19, 2008 10:04 PM

The perfect story

And the sooner an awful lot of the "must have instant chemistry" brigade loose that wofeful attitude and actually slow down, try people out one at a time, get to know who they are, the better!.

It is interesting I was hammered when I first started saying some of this stuff from a, guy who is looking, point of view, now we have two success stories in two blog chanels saying exactally the same thing at the same time.

The Girls (and some guys) could learn an awful lot from these two stories!

Posted by: creativestuart at August 20, 2008 10:13 AM

metalscott at August 20, 2008 12:48 AM

Welcome to the "Sex and the City" age

Posted by: creativestuart at August 20, 2008 10:06 AM

posted by woody 10:37pm:
"Why do people put up brick walls? What are they afriad of? Rejection? Maybe ......"
Now isn't that the question to ask? I know I spend a lot of time looking to see IF I am putting up a brick wall, WHY (I learn a lot about me from that), and challenging myself to take that brick wall down. It gets me, though, how so many 'partners' immediately bolt up solid iron walls when I show I am willing to take a small go at being vulnerable. The conclusion I have come to so far, and please help me out before I get over-cynical folks, is that people DON'T WANT intimacy, generally speaking. They prefer the easy trip of sex, or company to do what they want to do but not do it alone (ie, not sharing company but a person to drag along as they do their own thing - big difference because what the other person might want to get out of it often takes second place, if it is considered at all).
I often want to say "Hey, no drama, I am very happy with knowing my boundaries and am not offering you my universe, just to try and put a little of the wall down and have some minor authenticity", or less wordy than that of course!
If folks knew themselves better, had more of a sense of self-loving and the self-security that goes with that, they would be far less threatened by possible intimacy, even small quantities of that.
Some of you may remember me talking about the guy who turned to me in the night and gently stroked my face - it blew me away because it was so delightful. After that he just had to attempt to force me into things he knew were far too outside the square (and not in an intimate way at all!), knowing I would say No, he became more demanding with worse suggestions, including betrayal of friends, until I had to reject him...so he was secure to be dumped, hence avoiding any continuation of the intimacy he felt carried away to give me during the small night hours. That is reaction, avoidance, signs of internal conflict to a massive degree.....fear of rejection? No, fear of acceptance, of deeper intimacy....it seems to be the biggest antidote to potential love that there is! So maybe it was lluuuurrv but not 'love' whatever that is.

Posted by: espritlibrefemme at August 20, 2008 10:03 AM

You only need to listen to songs that men have written over the years to know that they feel just as deeply, hurt as bad, love as strongly, agonise, fantasise, are dropped to the depths of despair and are lifted to the heights of ecstacy. And if you think these men are exceptional, go to the break up songs blog and see the men that feel the pain when they hear those songs.

Posted by: willow29 at August 20, 2008 6:59 AM

About 10 years ago, my dad gave me the most sound peice of advice:

"People will come and go"

As for the pillowtalk after sex, i have found in my experiences, the females are the ones to not talk. Im more than happy for a chat after, but i get the cold shoulder.
I know this is going to sound funny, but it kind of made me feel like a peice of meat.

Posted by: metalscott at August 20, 2008 12:48 AM

laughsandtalks at August 19, 2008 10:58 PM: You didn't mention the increasing amount of estrogens in modern food and drinks, providing a chemical feminising pressure on males, on top of the sociological pressures that you were talking about.

Posted by: timewarp1 at August 20, 2008 12:09 AM

Marcus at 3:06pm: As a scientist and fairy-floss debunker, you'd be interested in what I learned at a recent 2-day training course on internet marketing.

The purpose of having a website isn't to try to maximise the number of hits on the site, no matter how gratifying that may be for the site designer's ego. The manager's goal is different - to get new business, and you judge the site by that.

I'm mentioning this here because it has great relevance for all of us too. The proof of our pudding is also in the eating.

An RSVP profile can't be called effective until it actually gets you quality contacts - the kind of people that you deserve to have in your life, and really want to meet.

A few months ago I wrote something about Perth in a blog that caused her to shoot suddenly up to No.1 by later that day.

But I don't think it got her a single coffee date, let alone a satisfying relationship with any of the avalanche of Profile tyre-kickers that I'd pointed in her direction.

Who cares how many people just look at a shop window as they hurry past? To measure the window-dresser's skill, you have to count the till.

So I think I better have another look at my own profile this weekend.

Posted by: timewarp1 at August 19, 2008 11:50 PM

espritlibrefemme, .....Hmmm what to say.............I feel for you & I do understand

Kim

Posted by: outbackdrifter at August 19, 2008 11:44 PM

How is talking about feelings and fears emasculating??

Is it not human to have these emotions and verbalise them??

I think it was Outbackdrifter (sorry if it wasn't) who wrote of men being brought up to not express these things outloud, and questioning the worth if this...Last time l looked Outbackdrifter was a man.
Why can't a man verbalise emotion and feeling?? Is it against the law??
So many questions, Marcus.........K

Posted by: auntykaz at August 19, 2008 11:17 PM

Posted by: piscesgirl56 at August 19, 2008 10:04 PM:
"what already worries me about this internet dating is that people talk to several potential partners at the same time, they make several dates one after the other , their minds are busy for looking for something else, something different - how on earth can they keep track of what who said, how can they learn about each person, how can they give necessary time for each other? It sounds like a huge chaos!"

I met a woman from here once, who was obviously frazzled. The poor dear had been on something like 4-5 dates in a week. She admitted that she was feeling a bit, ah, emotionally drained from meeting all these guys. :) It was kind of amusing, actually.

Posted by: drone at August 19, 2008 11:15 PM

Ilovetolaugh57 at August 19, 2008 8:34 PM

I get a wry laugh out of some families I see at shopping centres. The old man is walking 10 or 15 paces in front trying to look nonchalant and single. Following behind is a line of obvious progeny with mum, often overweight and dowdy bringing up the rear.
You can bet the intimacy for him has gone if it was ever there and his marriage is obligation and service.

Some of what I'm reading here about intimacy is starting to sound a bit post modern. There is something manly and good about having an emotional reserve.
Feeling close and relaxed on the pillow after sex and enjoying the warm intimate converstions that come naturally is part of coupling (and it can come comfortably and naturally with someone you may only ever see once).
The idea that a modern man should be expected to follow a gushy idealised female model of intimacy at the expense or compromise of his masculine character seems a bit of a theme here. The creeping feminisation of human sexuality is corrosive and damaging and confusing for boys and men. Like so many other things that have stood the test of time, a real man's innate judgement of, and reserve, in a situation where revealing too much may have a cost later, needs to be respected. Talking too much about deep feeling, fears and aspirations can end up being emasculating and not helpful. It certainly works that way too, when those conversations are between men.
nakedblogger

Posted by: laughsandtalks at August 19, 2008 10:58 PM

I have to say on a lonely Tuesday night that true intimacy is exceptionally hard to have. Friendship, sex, fun are all comparatively easy to have but intimacy ...... very illusive. Why do people put up brick walls? What are they afriad of? Rejection? Maybe .......

Posted by: woodnwine at August 19, 2008 10:37 PM

Posted by: espritlibrefemme at August 19, 2008 7:59 PM

Sounds like you had a great time growing up in England - the music back then was truly revolutionary and we were so lucky to have experienced it and grown up with it. I'm readng Nick Drake's biography at the moment and all these bands and more are mentioned ..... very interesting times. Long live the blues.

Posted by: woodnwine at August 19, 2008 10:34 PM

Posted by: espritlibrefemme at August 19, 2008 7:59 PM

"It is the kids that had their teens in the 80s I feel for, Boy George and suits ruling the world."

You don't need to feel for us. My entire teenage years were in the 80's and I can't name a single song of Boy George's as I was too busy listening to Ratt, The Candy Harlots, WASP, Queensryche, Tesla, Saxon and many other Glam and Heavy metal bands. The only downside was that being in Australia, hardly any of those bands actually made it here (although as the Candy Harlots used to play locally 3 or 4 times a week I wasn't complaining), until the last couple of years (well past the peaks of their popularity and they're all finally coming out here).

Posted by: eurotravel at August 19, 2008 10:29 PM

drone at August 19, 2008 9:24 PM: I suspect the elf may be right, and your memory-fading is self-protective memory-repression.

Unlike you, I remember significant emotions better than significant events, starting with my annoyance at age two when I got my fingers caught in a rabbit trap up the sand ridge around half a mile from the homestead, and was chained there in the desert-edge sun, so that I couldn't go home once I was ready for a drink of water.

And my since-unsurpassed utter bliss at 21, lying on the olive Casben beach towel which is now my midwinter second blanket, but was then spread on the soft warm sand on the beach at Bribie Island. I had my arm over the shoulders of my first girlfriend, and my eyes closed, so as to enjoy it all better.

And my mental vacuum after identifying my teenage son in the morgue. Till I thought how much worse it must be for his mother standing beside me at that moment, because she'd just lost her mother a couple of weeks before. She'd need a hug.

Posted by: timewarp1 at August 19, 2008 10:28 PM

On topic.... yes, with the right person.

Off topic.... the 60's....oooh I remember going to a huge concert at The Oval cricketground in London & seeing Emerson Lake & Palmer, Hawkwind & Genesis... far out it was trippy! There was low cloud cover that day, & the organisers played film of the Moon landing using the cloud as a screen!

hahaha... if I remember right, they were giving away a tab of mescaline with the tickets (I said it was trippy!)
When it got dark, guys moved through the crowds selling electric yo-yos (never seen before at the time), & the night ended with an enormous firework display...

... sigh

Posted by: decoratress at August 19, 2008 10:19 PM

Hi Drone,
Since the pain of losing my late husband has faded, the memories of the amazingly wonderful times we had together are with me constantly. I had to deal with the pain of his death to be free to release those memories. They were there all the time, and I was somehow protecting myself from re-thinking them with pain at the forefront of my mind, so their precious quality could remain for later ruminations. Now, his tender touches, his gentle voice, his saying "I love you" come to me many times, because they are what made us, the memories, even the ones of his annoying habits are preciously intimate now he is dead. The most importantly intimate ones are the ones where he showed me he knew about me in ways that no other human being on this earth did. No one else can have what he had with me, the intimacy between me and him....but there may well be someone who slowly grows to have intimacy with me, and me with him, where new memories are developed, ones that only we could ever know about each other...so if one departs, the memories are still there to comfort and support the one who remains. That is intimacy, that is love. The memories that need to feel safe to be released, and grieving has to be done before that safety is there. I think these are the memories that outback was referring to. And it is a bit of a chiller for me, outback, because he died on the Mundaring-Tiboburra Road, which was where I nearly died too - sorry bloggers....
But the memories are the vital thing about being intimate. Love and relationships need memories to survive.
Don't give up Drone, never give up.

Posted by: espritlibrefemme at August 19, 2008 10:19 PM

drone,"Yeah, you get where I'm coming from. Imagine that you're sitting on the sofa with someone you are intimate with. There are all sorts of feelings and sensations associated with that. It might be how their body fits against yours, the smell of their hair, the touch of their skin, their soft tone of voice/looks that they reserve for you, and so on."

for someone can not remember what intimacy felt like..............that was pretty good description :)

Posted by: outbackdrifter at August 19, 2008 10:08 PM

aqueousdb66 I cannot agree with you more - it is impossible to build an intimate relationship, any kind of healthy relationship- unless you are emotionally fully focused on one relationship only...what already worries me about this internet dating is that people talk to several potential partners at the same time, they make several dates one after the other , their minds are busy for looking for something else, something different - how on earth can they keep track of what who said, how can they learn about each person, how can they give necessary time for each other? It sounds like a huge chaos!

When my daughter met her partner, she was very unsure what to do...I still remember her talking to me for days about her confusion: the boy is a serious young man, such a respectful good guy, BUT he was nothing like her ideal dream partner: she wanted a nice looking, big, strong man,with dark hair, this boy was of her hight, thin (even though a football player), fine boned, and oh dear: he was a BLOND...in addition she kept saying - I never want to date a football player! This boy was an active football player...she hated the culture football players were known for...After 2 wks of dating the boy, she said she could not cope with the boy, she found him boring...it was 3 years ago - he is her first true love, they are inseparable, every day together and the love between them is stronger than ever...guess what keeps their relationship so strong and beautiful? The intimacy they share on many levels! It took them a lot of TIME to achieve that. They deal with every single conflict immediately, nothing gets 'swipped undert the carpet'...they communicate openly and honestly...they have accepted their differences as stepping stones, they learn from each other. They are both fully committed to each other...there were things he has given up for her, and vice versa...and at the beginning there was nothing spectacular between them, not even that 'chemistry' present...she just gave it a time, because of the boy's other personal qualities...

This is impossible to achieve when you do not give time for a relationship to develop... even more so if you date one person and your mind is on looking for something else. I believe, that the best bet is to sort out ALL past relationships fully before we start looking for that right person. Be clear what you want! In every relationship we are different - we love differently and we are loved differently...different relationships bring out different personality traits...if we go from one relationship to the other we are taking our habits, behavior patterns, expectations with us and that can be damaging...

Posted by: piscesgirl56 at August 19, 2008 10:04 PM

Drone - yes, some memories may fade to nothing over time. But certain poignant ones seem to just take a back seat for a while, then a certain smell, sight, or song or sound, or all of the above can retrigger it and it's right back there with you...

Posted by: heart2heart57 at August 19, 2008 9:55 PM

Posted by: espritlibrefemme at August 19, 2008 7:59 PM:

Wow, so you were "there", eh?

I like 60s and a lot of 70s music... In fact I have all the Beatles albums and all their solo albums too (er, well, minus a few Ringo albums...) and that runs to a lot of albums! I've been getting into Harry Nilsson recently - beautiful voice, very distinctive singing style, and clever songwriter.

Posted by: drone at August 19, 2008 9:32 PM

Posted by: espritlibrefemme at August 19, 2008 6:56 PM:

Thanks, that was lovely of you.

Yeah, you get where I'm coming from. Imagine that you're sitting on the sofa with someone you are intimate with. There are all sorts of feelings and sensations associated with that. It might be how their body fits against yours, the smell of their hair, the touch of their skin, their soft tone of voice/looks that they reserve for you, and so on.

Now, suppose that this all ends, and you are single for a number of years. I'm sure lots of us can identify with this. What happens to your memory of what it feels like to be intimate like that? In my case, it fades. I wonder what happens for other people?

In the case of people for whom it fades, why does this happen? One possibility, along the lines you were suggesting, is that it's to do with self-protection. Another would be that it is just the normal way your brain is set up. Things to do with memories of feelings and sensations, rather than facts, recede without reinforcement. Thus, I can quite vividly call to mind the sensations involved in having a shower, but this is because I shower regularly.

What are the implications of this fading? I suspect without it, none of us could ever recover from things. If the memories someone has of, say, the death of someone close to them always remained as lustrous and vivid as the day they first got the news, it would actually be impossible to recover.

As to the fading of memories to do with intimacy, and what implications that fading may have for your being single or not into the future, I'm reminded of something grego wrote a few days back:

"You may not be hungry enough. Bottom line is you gotta really want a woman, you have to want to make love to her so much that you will burst if you dont. And I mean make love not piston sex. You gotta want to hold her in a way so that she feels safe and warm. You gotta want to caress her back and shoulders as if they are the most beautiful objects in the world.You gotta want to softly touch the edge of her mouth with your tongue so she squeaks in delight. You gotta want to brush her hair and tumble your fingers through it. You gotta want to look at her as if she is the only woman ever created. You gotta want her with with every part of you. You gotta want to love her so much you feel your guts will rip out."

I wonder if simply not being able to remember clearly what that was like, can cause you to be "not hungry enough"?

Posted by: drone at August 19, 2008 9:24 PM

Malsie, I wish you all the best and hope you are departing the blogs for happiness....
Cheers,
B.

Posted by: bm1960 at August 19, 2008 9:12 PM

"drone" I KNOW you did not mean anything bad in your comment about 'lunatics', I understood what was your point! I just tried to explain to you that there is an other side of the coin too - a positive side! As in everything in life...And I fully agree with you that one has to be careful, because 'lunatics' not only support each other but also learn dysfunctional patterns of behavior as well! Absolutely spot on! It's up to you to ignore all the harmful rubbish, negativity and nonsense and pay attention to useful stuff! AAANNNDDD - try to protect yourself, do not take on board what does not belong there!

No, we cannot generalise about men like that - emotional numbness, no capacity for intimacy, objectifying the human body (indiscriminate sexual activity, one night stands...) is NOT gender specific. I know men who are absolutely wounderful, who talk about their wives with so much love and respect, men who believe they won on the lottery when they met their wives!

Drone, you will find what you want if you keep the positive attitude and stay patient. Just do not go for the second best, because you fear lonelyness... :)

Posted by: piscesgirl56 at August 19, 2008 9:11 PM

re: drone 6.47 I agree it is not classy in fact it is downright disrespectful. In my opinion happily married/partners would never do this. It signals to me that all is not well in 95% of cases. Certainly there can be the light hearted loving teasing but you can tell the difference. I think that when you have been through the "mill" so to speak that you become quite astute at picking whom is really happily married and whom is not.

Posted by: lovetolaugh57 at August 19, 2008 8:34 PM

Posted by: amberlight58 at August 19, 2008 10:49 AM - Quite sure about that, are you Amber?

Posted by: heart2heart57 at August 19, 2008 8:33 PM

Posted by: amourmoi08 at August 19, 2008 9:45 AM - Ain't never been called "single, sexy and like a bottle of vintaged age wine" before, but I'll take it... ~*ma-waaah*~ :)

Posted by: heart2heart57 at August 19, 2008 8:30 PM

I'll miss your posts also Malsie. Hope all is ok. Take care.

Jen x

Posted by: jenniferhi at August 19, 2008 8:23 PM

Bye Malsie...

Thanks Jen(did u get it? I can't believe it slipped through!)

Yes Timewarp,I saw your hand!

Chill out everyone.........listen to some Creedance!! and dance around the house!!!!

Nite all!

Posted by: musicteacher at August 19, 2008 8:20 PM

Drone, the 60s and the 70s, partially it depends on where you were then.
The 60s were a blast for me, being an art student in swinging Britain at that time was like wow, and the pill was there, along with heaps of talks of revolution and not being the same as the oldies (who were late 20s then!).
I remember "England swings like a pendulum do" and it did! Mary Quant, Twiggy, Scene at Six-Thirty and The Beatles and The Rolling Stones, The Who, a really crazy scene. At the end of the 60s there were open air concerts where you could see Led Zepellin and Cream and Crosby, Stills and Nash - I remember Jose Feliciano and Mungo Jerry being awesome, and seeing the Sabbath when they were just on the road promoting their Iron Man tour, also on their bill was The Pretty Things and Yes had been the week before, and Tyrannosauraus rex the week before that...and parties after the shows with groups, and communes, and the start of the hippies, wild child times, when living hard and dying young was the norm, Janis Joplin really showed it how it was, and Hendrix (I went to a party one Saturday night instead of seeing him live - regrets, regrets).
England was the craziest scene in the 60s - wild! It is the kids that had their teens in the 80s I feel for, Boy George and suits ruling the world. I am really, really glad I had the crazy teenage that I did, with all the swirling haze of parties and road trips that an art student was sort of obliged to get involved in. It was a gas!
No one I am still a wild child teenie girl in my heart and head....love the likes of Pink and Lily Allen because they really stick it up any conservativism, which is what we spent every day doing to be honest.

Posted by: espritlibrefemme at August 19, 2008 7:59 PM

Lynda, that dinner cooked for me for the first time was Osso Bucco. Was yum! Even though I could hardly eat. Oh, and I am open to learning new skills in the kitchen with someone special. Sounds a lovely thing to do for sure.

Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at August 19, 2008 7:57 PM

Oh, the dishes can wait til the next day if necessary. (hehe).

All you guys talking about the roast this week, well I cooked one tonight. Roast lamb and yes did bake the vegies. Except for the peas. Oh, and the gravy turned out yum. Doesn't often do that for me. lol.

Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at August 19, 2008 7:26 PM

'bye malsie. We'll miss you. Safe trip and have fun.

Posted by: timewarp1 at August 19, 2008 7:13 PM

espritlibrefemme at August 19, 2008 9:46 AM : Of course you have no interest in me. I never thought you would. Way out of my league. And congrats on No. 1.

Posted by: timewarp1 at August 19, 2008 6:59 PM

posted by outbackdrifter @2:14pm:
"Drone, if you can not remember its not intimacy or love....................very sad"
I couldn't disagree with you more. I read Drone's posting and my heart leaped out at him. It strikes me that he has known deep love/intimacy and losing it has been so very painful, and waiting in hope for it to come again has also createdn the greatest of all pains - the slow, diminishing loss of hope. I see Drone has successively protected himself, holding on the the memories by making them less inaccessible to his day-to-day grieving as hope dwindles. That is what is deeply sad, to see his precious human soul in such pain - and he was oh so brave to come forward and answer you highly direct personal query that you continually put to him, asking him to explain what intimacy means to him, and he has, and it is heartwrenching in its beauty because it is so vulnerable and raw and open and honest.
Drone your tender heart is protecting itself, waiting for love to find you again. There is a danger that the protection gets so great that it stops you from reaching out and continuing to try, but your heart has known intimacy and that is nevr forgotten once experienced, even if it becomes buried away from self-judgement.
Dear man, wrap yourself in love and nurture that heart so that hope does not disappear. Intimacy will return if you try to remain open to inviting it. That is the hardest part when love is lost.
Courage is when fear is felt and the urge to act against the fear is greater than the fear. You are on here, contributing with your heart wide open and exposed, and that tells me two things, one is that you have a tender heart still in need, the other is that you have a good mind as you can contribute so insigthfully. There is a third thing. You have courage.

Posted by: espritlibrefemme at August 19, 2008 6:56 PM

waterbombe at August 19, 2008 9:42 AM: Thanks for that info. New to me too.

Posted by: timewarp1 at August 19, 2008 6:54 PM

willow29 at August 19, 2008 9:33 AM: I believe you are partly right. I was talking mainly about middle-aged men who'd been dumped, and lost their confidence as a result. Life plans scattered, egos shattered.

I think you're talking about the other kind - still got a little woman who is happy for him to vegetate throughout his leisure hours as long as she gets his pay packet, or is too timid to demurr. Or at least he has mates who encourage his indolence, because it doesn't threaten theirs.

Posted by: timewarp1 at August 19, 2008 6:53 PM

Posted by: malsie at August 19, 2008 5:46 PM:
I've enjoyed reading your posts. Good luck with everything!

Posted by: drone at August 19, 2008 6:48 PM

amberlight wrote:
"However even my still-married friends' partners seem to find it funny to pretend their wife is some kind of dragon lady and act and speak to her disrespectfully, especially when in a mixed group.
These men are aged in their 40s & 50s and they act as if they would find it almost embarrassing if someone was to think they actually loved their wife!"

Sounds pretty unsatisfying for all concerned, to me... I don't really understand why people see the need to behave like that. It is not very classy.

Posted by: drone at August 19, 2008 6:47 PM

waterbombe wrote:
"I'm really interested in what you see as the differences between your generation and mine (I'm 55) ...I agree with you that the level of respect men have for women is greater in the younger generations...and I am curious to know more about it."

OK... this is all highly speculative.

I suppose the formative influences on your generation must have been a bit different... you'd remember the 60s, I guess. From the Australian TV I've seen from the 60s, the vibe seemed much different to today. Though the 60s is often talked about as this great transformational time, I gather that tertiary education was still mostly the province of the reasonably well-off. And I'm guessing that the all these social changes generated in the 60s didn't really start trickling down to the "masses" until some time in the 70s. Which perhaps means that your average person who had their attitudes formed in the 60s or even early 70s, would likely still be thinking in the old ways about men and women and how they relate.

One factor that strikes me as important, is the fact that, over time, women began to invade a broader cross-section of careers. Once upon a time, women could either be nurses or teachers - before they got married.
And I suppose it's easier to think of women as being innately less competent, and therefore, less worthy of respect, than men if all they get to do is a bit of nursing and child-rearing and housework.

But now, women do all sorts of things in the workforce, and men can see that they are very competent indeed at a lot of different stuff. And that feeds into measures of respect.

Posted by: drone at August 19, 2008 6:38 PM

Good luck Malsie, hope to see you on occasionally :)

Posted by: willow29 at August 19, 2008 6:26 PM

Intimacy occurs when both parties share equal power in the relationship. If your power is equal, you're free to share emotions. What you deem equal is going to vary dramatically from person to person. Posted by: capriciousimp at August 19, 2008 12:48 PM

Amongst the vexed an interesting post. When both parties share equal power the ability to allow true intimacy occurs. One would imagine that would be if the parties values were similar. On RSVP i have heard said, "it's presumptuous to assume someone has only one lover". Now that may be said as a means of indicating the parties are just dating and not serious but how can you seek intimacy when this thought is at the back of your mind. That is, they are or may be dating or actively seeking another person. Surely when you are dating someone that you think may have longer term possibilities you owe them exclusivity or is dating just another term for competing for their affections?

Posted by: aqueousdb66 at August 19, 2008 6:17 PM

waterbombe at August 19, 2008 4:36 PM:

Very thoughtful of you to help me stuff. As it turns out, the phrase "adult orphan" yielded good things on google... a number of books, and so on. I'll get a couple of them.

Sometimes, you just need to know what to type into the search engine!

Posted by: drone at August 19, 2008 6:16 PM

Thanks for the kiss, lovemelady.
Jen, cooking is so sensuous and is great to do for yourself. Sure it is fabulous if a guy does that for you, I just know nobody has since I started dating again (well one guy a long time ago did some frozen vegies and fish, not real great but appreciated). Try experimenting and having fun, playing music that is sensual and fun, tippling on the wine, taking your basic ingredients and putting them together creatively, experimenting...like something else you also enjoy, I am sure (cqts).
The Osso Bucco Milanese last night was yummy and the L'aplan Provencal tonight will be fun to make (about to start) and I am sure will also be yummy. Regarding calories Perthgirl (and good luck with your perseverance there, much to be admired), I have found that eating something cooked long and slow, with lots of yummy juices, fills me so much that I eat hardly anything all day but a good plate of that meal and become so engrossed in cooking it that my mind doesn't tempt me with other things. That kind of self-indulgence is really good for figure managing!
And sneerssnidely, I wish it were possible to show a symbol for centre digit in air on here.

Posted by: espritlibrefemme at August 19, 2008 5:51 PM

I'm taking a break from the blogs for the forseeable future - may be back later, don't know... adios amigoes.... xx

Posted by: malsie at August 19, 2008 5:46 PM

grego@2 .44pm:

What's happened to your spirit of chivalry sir?
"BIDDIES"!!! humph! (ROFLM)

Posted by: kurli at August 19, 2008 5:12 PM

Greg, Greg, Greg......smack smack, sir l say!! Biddies, don't they have to be elderly, as in, like over 80 or something.......???

More like buttrflies to a moth l would think. Or a bright light.....yes, that's the one a bright light, moth is a little, ummm, "biddies" like, what do you think??.................K

Posted by: auntykaz at August 19, 2008 4:50 PM

Drone the best book that I know of for adults is written for women - its called Motherless Daughters. You could google it to get the author...(Fay someone I think). They are all people who lost their mother when they were teens and adults, and right through to their fifties, they had issues in common. The thing is that you model your adult behaviour on your parents...when you become a father, you look at your own father for ideas and strategies. If your father has died, you only have a memory to go on, and it may not be a particularly accurate one. You may not have noticed much about your father's parenting because it wasn't especially relevant to you at the time...but when you becaome a parent yourself, there is a whole lot of maturing to do and no one to serve as a model or to help . That's one of the problems that adult orphans face, that the rest of us don't. We mightn't like what our parents did, but they are there as models for us to accept or reject or modify. That book has some Aussie stories as well as American ones. Gender might not matter that much...you might find it a fascinating read. You could also ask your local librarian to find you books of that calibre written about men. Or you could write one.

I agree with you about the therapy, it's not that you need to re-evaluate your life, but if you have people who have been in the same boat to talk to, it helps to get a sense of where you are at. I wonder if there is a website that has a blog attached...like this one ...I bet there is something like that coming out of the US.

Posted by: waterbombe at August 19, 2008 4:36 PM

Posted by: outbackdrifter at August 19, 2008 12:27 PM ..OBD just asking you a question here although your question wasn't addressed to me, but I am curious.... why do you think intimacy isn't mutual acceptance without judgement? Isn't intimacy the openess to another, the total acceptance of all their foibles and problems (we all have them) without saying, "I don't like that ...and that...and that...about you" ? Instead, just thinking, "oh yeah, he can't do that, or that, but it doesn't matter, because he's extremely talented/gorgeous/wonderful even without that". And not worrying or even thinking about the things you don't get in the relationship because you do get so much. That's what I mean by lack of judgement....you don't get everything you might want but you simply don't care. Other people might be bothered but you're not, you're happy.

And Amour Mwah...something of a dark horse... a stallion in a pretty dress?

Posted by: waterbombe at August 19, 2008 4:23 PM

Grego ~ Just who are you calling biddies? Hmmmm. Lol.

Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at August 19, 2008 4:02 PM

musicteacher ~ 1.20PM. Good post. And I think the guys will like it. lol. Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at August 19, 2008 3:45 PM

Outbackdrifter ~ Maybe some of us don't have our heart in it anymore. My heart soars off in heaps of directions, and I'm afraid cooking isn't one of them. I so wish it did actually. I'd rather clean up the mess and wash dishes all night. lol.

But I can tell you when a guy cooks for you how special that is. When I first started dating again, and was cooked for, I can't even explain the emotion that enveloped me. He thought I was crazy I think. But there I was tearing up at the dinner table. (He knows who he is and is probably reading this. lol. Thanks gorgeous guy). But when you have had a partner for all those years who hardly ever put a meal together, something like that is just so special.

Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at August 19, 2008 3:42 PM

Drone........we all have issues.........

don't obsess about yourself so much.......if it comes up,say what happened and move on.your date will have sad life stories as well...your lovelife should be a respite from the problems of your life.........it's your time,,,yours and hers.

Posted by: musicteacher at August 19, 2008 3:10 PM

espritlibrefemme August 19, 2008 9:46 AM
Black pots and kettles cheap anyone?

Posted by: laughsandtalks at August 19, 2008 3:06 PM

Posted by: troyohboy at August 19, 2008 1:54 PM

Troy, you are right but I was hoping Armoural would wait in the line giving Rod time to escape. I think there are a few biddies on here who would let him hide under their skirts.
rgds grego

Posted by: grego7 at August 19, 2008 2:44 PM

ouch...why are the ugliest of souls able to write so little and say so much.

Why do the married ones have so much time for the single, straight, at one with themselves, to give more insight than invited to?

Why are those with the profiles of a Trogan so guided by thier own lights that that just smashed into someone else in Hobart that is drifting out to sea but pops in from time to time to pick up his hat..... I like his funny little ways.... say it with love and all things good as it says more about you that it ever will about me.

Nice try for the verbal upper cut though, always good to keep me on my toes although not one little bit of truth in any of it.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Posted by: amourmoi08 at August 19, 2008 2:23 PM

Drone, if you can not remember its not intimacy or love....................very sad

Posted by: outbackdrifter at August 19, 2008 2:14 PM

Posted by: grego7 at August 19, 2008 11:49 AM

Mate, I think armoural would have the muscles to throw a sack over Rod. Poor old Rod would be in for a fright once he saw who had grabbed him however. Not at all what he would have suspected I think haha.

Troy

Posted by: troyohboy at August 19, 2008 1:54 PM

Posted by: outbackdrifter at August 19, 2008 12:27 PM:

After 5 years of being single, it is difficult for me to remember what intimacy feels like.

I remember that it was worth having, but I don't have an *ache* in my heart for intimacy, because it is distant and I don't seem to really remember how it felt any more.

Posted by: drone at August 19, 2008 1:51 PM

Come on people:

Why argue with the opposite sex when you must know that we think differently on many issues.If you are going to discuss anything,try and think,then speak like that gender would....otherwise you are wasting your time.

We forget this.....and get frustrated and angry with the opposite sex.

I hope someone is getting some intimacy today....if not.....blow someone..........a kiss!

Posted by: musicteacher at August 19, 2008 1:20 PM

It is moi.

I have just finished easing my inner child and polished off a bowl of ice cream with my real life, in person friend who happens to be a male so cut and paste that if you choose to.

I choose whom I choose to be intimate with and sometimes, although not always share it on this site.

I also feel no need or desire to share my inner thoughts with the likes of those profiles that pertain to be in a marriage and scream and squeel all over this site as your profiles are well and trully blocked as they should be.

I like the many good apples here and choose only to read the ones that come from a good place and have only good intentions.

I keep my keys in my handbag and not ensure they never end in the fish bowl of the married, swingers, and those that enjoy that life style as I choose not to.

Call me young, craxy if you will.

I like to call it honouring they marriage and committment to be at one with myself and the one that I choose.

peace out xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Posted by: amourmoi08 at August 19, 2008 1:11 PM

Intimacy occurs when both parties share equal power in the relationship. If your power is equal, you're free to share emotions. What you deem equal is going to vary dramatically from person to person.

Posted by: capriciousimp at August 19, 2008 12:48 PM

Drone, I ask you about intimacy not mutual accept, From what I have seen your answers are textbook based not what you feel.............................now tell us what do you feel about intimacy ?

Posted by: outbackdrifter at August 19, 2008 12:27 PM

Amber, If an old bushy like me can cook...............you can, cooking is from the heart not a book or tv show :))

Posted by: outbackdrifter at August 19, 2008 12:15 PM

Warper,
A couple of months ago your interlude with a fellow blogger ended quite spectacularly. As I recall Marcus aptly descibed it as going down a flamer and crashing and burning.

This time,though, you have excelled yourself and been shot to bits in mid-air.
rgds grego

Posted by: grego7 at August 19, 2008 12:13 PM

waterbombe wrote:
"I'm really interested in what you see as the differences between your generation and mine (I'm 55) ...I agree with you that the level of respect men have for women is greater in the younger generations...and I am curious to know more about it."
Hmm...

Let me think about this a bit.

Posted by: drone at August 19, 2008 12:03 PM

Actually, even if they've kissed you (or emailed), you can block them without putting them on your favourites.

Posted by: willow29 at August 19, 2008 12:03 PM

Posted by: outbackdrifter at August 18, 2008 11:43 PM
"drone, teach us...........................Tell us what intimacy is to you ?"

To me, it involves accepting and being accepted without feeling that you are being evaluated all the time.

As for what it feels like, I think others have expressed it better than I could.

Posted by: drone at August 19, 2008 12:02 PM

That's correct Waterbombe :)

Posted by: willow29 at August 19, 2008 12:01 PM

Posted by: amourmoi08 at August 19, 2008 10:24 AM

Armour, press ganging a bloke in a gunny sack is a bit brutal dont you think. Rod is a very good man and I am sure if you asked politely he would be more than happy to sereande you with his guitar.

There is a queue., however, so you will have to take your turn.
rgds grego

Posted by: grego7 at August 19, 2008 11:49 AM

Posted by: waterbombe at August 19, 2008 9:20 AM:
"I've been reading about this recently and apparently if you lose your parents at 27, or anytime before your late 40s, you have to parent yourself...you either do it and become old before your time, or you don't do it (or can't do it, if you were very young when you lost your parents) and remain immature far longer than you would have."

That's interesting - thanks. If you have any references, I'd love to hear them. Maybe I'll do a bit more digging on the web. I did try to look into it a couple of years ago, but couldn't find stuff on people without families.

I did think of seeing a pych. about it at one time, but I think, mainly what I wanted was just to feel understood, and not a battery of cognitive behavioural therapy. Kind of like how people presumably come to this blog to feel understood, perhaps, because none of their married friends can relate to being single, or dating, or whatever.

I don't think I've quite worked out how to deal with the issue gracefully when it comes up on dates, though (as it always does, because people always ask about your family). The obvious thing that may occur to people on dates when this comes up is going to be something like "This guy is going to have a lot of issues, be very needy and vulnerable".

Posted by: drone at August 19, 2008 11:47 AM

Esprit and others, do you know you can block TW and others if you don't want emails from them? Simply go to their profile, make them a favourite (yes I know, its hard to do). Once they appear in your favourites folder, you can choose "block". That way, they cannot see your profile, but everyone else can. You'll still be open to kisses and emails from everyone esle, but they can't send you any because the message they get is that there is no such person as you on the site.

Is that the right procedure, guys...I'm relying on memory here.

Posted by: waterbombe at August 19, 2008 11:40 AM

LOL outbackdrifter,
I know exactly what you mean. Unfortunately in my case, no one even wants me for my cooking "skills"! Don't seem to possess any!

Posted by: amberlight58 at August 19, 2008 11:20 AM

Had to have a look Esprit, great photo and profile by the way!

Don't worry, I already "figured it out" H2H!

Drone, how sad for you about your family. Actually I find nothing offensive about your posts at all. You are honest and straight forward and there is very little cynicism in your posts!
Actually I agree with your observation that most young men today are far more respectful of their partners than many older men. I gave examples in my last post of many of my friends' husbands who seem to think that showing their wives respect and esteem in public is embarrassing!

I find my own sons have little respect for their father now. When they were in their early teens they tended to agree with him that their mother was some kind of emotional wipeout and they often sided with him when he criticised me.
Now they are older and have mates with girlfriends and have had girlfriends of their own, they seem to have realised that I wasn't asking for anything exceptional from their father and they ask why I chose to stay for as long as I did.

I wonder if some of these young men on looking at their own fathers, have decided that they want a better relationship than their parents had. They don't see their father making fun of their mothers, or disregarding her as behaviour they wish to emulate.
They are also partnering with young women who have seen their own mothers treated similarly and are determined they are not going to be treated the same!
So they don't tolerate any disrespectful behaviour in the first place.
Coupled with the fact that most young women have a career and financial independence, so they never expect to "settle" anyway, whereas (I am ashamed to say) my mindset in my early 20s was "well he doesn't drink a lot and although he never listens at least at least he doesn't hit me" not exactly the optimum expectations for a happy and enduring relationship!

Posted by: amberlight58 at August 19, 2008 10:49 AM

amourmoi08,Story of my life only wanted for company and cooking skills............ it would nice once in while if someone would just Lust after me :p

Posted by: outbackdrifter at August 19, 2008 10:33 AM

TD or Rod which ever one you would prefer: If I was in Tassie I would throw a hessian sack over you and take you out to sea for at the very least, one month to get to know you better.

I am found on this site flitting about so if you would like to get to know me better read my blogs and learn more about me as I am learning about you.

I love all the postings and often send kisses to the well rounded and balanced ladies that also blog.

Before some men, (not all men, may if they are so inclined) start an epic sexual fantasy that they can enjoy off line in the privacy of thier own personal blogging space..............................................................I am not a lesbian or two short of a threesome!

I enjoy all your words and company and applied some your tips and tricks to the everyday life that I have to lead at times.

I sent a kiss to a profile that I thought was male and turns out the the picture that was password protected as mine is, was in fact a female.

Fortunate for me she was gracious enough to reply the kiss and tell me she did not want to correspond any further!

I had an interesting coffee date and left him at the coffee shop where he needed to stay and find out which pulse he was after next because it was not going to be mine that was clear within the first 10 mins.

So my fellow bloggers, I call a spade a spade and try to sort the wheat from the chaff in the most responsbile way, but always try to say it with love and the same intent that I find myself in the company of.

Peace out xxxxxxxxxxx

Posted by: amourmoi08 at August 19, 2008 10:24 AM

Esprit, that picture is lovely, pensive. Im sorry you have had such an awful email - especially from "one of us". There is an implied trust on the blogs - as you said, a respect. We are all placing ourselves in a very vulnerable position. I have had emails from fellow bloggers and I am happy to say that they have only ever been supportive and friendly. Thank you to those people.

Posted by: willow29 at August 19, 2008 10:23 AM

I don't need your gradings TW. I don't give them of others and I don't ask for them myself. You don't know me at all so are not really qualified to comment on my confidence or lack thereof. I think it would be good if you didn't email me directly, as you have been doing, to push home your point of view. I neither invite nor desire your attention. I am very happy with myself, hence being able to show full-faced photos of myself with no makeup on as my primary photo - and yet again become number one, with this more raw approach. Giving away the need to be graded by individuals who want to 'advise' me on how to market myself is something I can easily do. It is ironic that you choose to do this on the very day when my 'marketing' skills are shown to be so effective. Forget it as far as I am concerned TW. I have already let you know when you emailed earlier that I have no interest in you.
Sorry if this might sound defensive everyone. It isn't at all. Going off the blogs to interact with someone is calling upon good nature built from being a member of a blogging community. If that is misused, it demands being addressed, which is exactly what I am doing. Only one other has used emails as an inappropriate continuation from blogging and when he said I needed my clothes ripping off and to be thrown on the floor, I told him where to go. He knows who he is.
Please treat the relationship protocol developed on here with a bit more respect people, as so many of you frequently do, and thank you to the friends from the blogs who have done that.
Play with respect in the sandpit folks and I will endeavour to do the same. Cheers.

Posted by: espritlibrefemme at August 19, 2008 9:46 AM

hello sweet kind co bloggers. Well I have been absent in my blogs of late and just caught up to read wonderful words of personal growth. Good on you drone I can see you are making so many steps forward to being happy with your lot in life and making positive changes but don't apopolgies for posting blogs your worth every posting.

Outback I am still waiting for your address so that when I am in your neck of the woods we can have a rsvp dinner. I don't want anything from you other than your good find company and cooking skills.

heart2heart your single, sexy and like a bottle of vintaged age wine that I can not wait to meet up for one day when I am in your neck of the woods. Again, not wanting anything other than your fine company and obvious good conversation.

Peace out and kiss all that deserve the kiss.xxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Posted by: amourmoi08 at August 19, 2008 9:45 AM

oh and I'm not being patronising...I am dealing with this in my own life as my partner has two children who lost their mother as adults... there are so many things to learn about it I was astonished. I just thought I'd pass on the information...you may already know all about it of course. But if you, or anyone who finds themselves in my positon, doesn't know about it, it helps a lot to read about it.

Posted by: waterbombe at August 19, 2008 9:42 AM

TW, its interesting that you note that "fear of failure" makes the tv remote attractive to older men. Are you sure its not just complacency? The "I've reached that stage of my life where if I dont feel like going jogging, I won't. If I want to eat pizza and drink beer, I will".

Posted by: willow29 at August 19, 2008 9:33 AM

All my immediate family (parents, brother) were in the grave by the time I was 27, after long illnesses in some cases. My, ah, problems in life, if there are such, come from thinking too old for my age, rather than too young. drone at August 18, 2008 11:29 PM

I've been reading about this recently and apparently if you lose your parents at 27, or anytime before your late 40s, you have to parent yourself...you either do it and become old before your time, or you don't do it (or can't do it, if you were very young when you lost your parents) and remain immature far longer than you would have. A hell of a lot of our emotional maturity depends on having our parents as examples...to follow or to reject ... we might reject some aspects and follow others, it's quite complex...but if we don't have them, we sail around in circles looking for them, or we become them ourselves as far as we are able. We are used to thinking of only children being affected by the death of a parent but there is research on parent loss in your twenties, thirties and forties because it really does seriously make an individual either older or younger than they would have been had their parents lived.

Sounds like you had a bit of a rough trot, drone, and so may be more mature than the average guy your age. You may find women your own age or a bit older more compatible, or perhaps look for a woman who has had your experience of early parent loss. There are organisations for adult children who have lost parents...you would probably find something on the net. That would be the quick way to get some information about it.

Posted by: waterbombe at August 19, 2008 9:20 AM

Gosh, aqueous, drone said a grain of salt not an avalanche of salt!

Posted by: waterbombe at August 19, 2008 8:56 AM

Timewarp @12.41am - "continuing focus on trying to plead your own desirability, instead of taking it as a given and focussing on your log of claims" How true is that for those of us who have been battered by the confusion and the feelings of loss (of our partner, of our self-worth, our pride).Thank you - that came as timely advice.

Posted by: willow29 at August 19, 2008 8:49 AM

I think it's fear that makes the TV remote so attractive to many older men. Fear of failure.

Fear of being examined minutely by womankind and classified as older than Brad Pitt, shorter and fatter than George Clooney, slower than Michael Klim (and not even as bald); more stupid than our Marcus, and guaranteed to generate more methane than New Zealand.

Hey, if you don't stand up and compete, you can't lose the race and feel bad about that ...."

This was a bit of my response to happytimes70 in the Over-50 blog that is only half full, but is hidden away in "Categories".

People were writing good stuff there yesterday. Worth a look. And if enough people look, that might get it into the top 100 that RSVP list under "recent Entries."

Posted by: timewarp1 at August 19, 2008 8:27 AM

Posted by: piscesgirl56 at August 18, 2008 9:11 PM - Couldn't have said it better...

Posted by: heart2heart57 at August 19, 2008 12:51 AM

Posted by: amberlight58 at August 18, 2008 10:10 PM - Yah Amber. It is a gross generalisation, and exactly what it was meant to be. I'm sure you'll figure it out...

Posted by: heart2heart57 at August 19, 2008 12:49 AM

espritlibrefemme at August 18, 2008 10:16 PM : An attempt at a reply to your question:

* You're at least a nine-and-a-half (out of ten), you've had a partner who was a ten, and you certainly deserve another ten. And more than one in turn, if he doesn't last long enough either.

* So set your own minimum standards for what behaviour from others is good enough to be acceptable to you, to avoid you retrenching them, or not hiring them in the first place. Set these standards in each category of behaviour, so that if met, they will give you what you deserve from a relationship.

For example, if it matters to you, demand "a relationship where understanding and acceptance does not equate with either feeling hog-tied or being accused of being the jailer."

* Seek people to become your new extra friends-first from those who have heard exactly what those standards are, and are comfortable in theory with living up to them.

You can't fly like an eagle if you consort with turkeys, and intelligent, experienced people are usually able to tell the difference. (Start by watching for wing-dragging and hobble-gobble.)

* Use the Confucian method of recruiting: specify the requirements for the candidate in such detail that only suitable applicants put their hands up, saving a lot of wasted time (and sometimes heartache) in pre-screening.

This is the diametrical opposite of your current otherwise-excellent profile's woefully-limp-wristed perfect-partner specifications, which I see as inviting every fourth-rate male to chat you up and waste your time.

In my own profile I specify clearly what I'm looking for, and I also have a standardised initial email (to use when they've licensed me to send it, or in answer to their first email, if the kiss came from them).

This email includes (in different words) that I'm fair dinkum about meeting someone who's also looking for a permanent relationship (friendship first), so I want to immediately eliminate the insufficiently-motivated tyre-kickers.

So I ask for a commitment to a first meeting of at least 2 hours over a 'Dutch' meal, or forget it. This gets rid of about one in 40 who got to that stage, but won't commit to investing a couple of hours in checking out a potential future romantic partner sight-unseen, but profile already seen, and already approved in theory, if accurate.

LJ, I believe your only obstacle to finding yourself your next 'ten' within a reasonable time frame is your continuing focus on trying to plead your own desirability, instead of taking it as a given and focussing on your log of claims like a real negotiator. And they're the ones who get what they deserve. And the very Best of British to you!

PS: To all you other gals and guys, including myself: That goes for you too. Even if you're only a six, you deserve your match, and that's a lot better than a four. So don't settle for less, again.

Posted by: timewarp1 at August 19, 2008 12:41 AM

This means that the evidence presented on here, if used to make *generalisations* about the characteristics of either men or women, should be taken with a grain of salt. Posted by: drone at August 18, 2008 10:25 PM - Well drone, if your not finding these blogs supportive or helpful in any way perhaps you should hibernate as quite frankly your *generalisations* about the characteristics of bloggers is rather condescending. You are implying that our life experiences, which are completely relevant to this forum, are making us impervious to the world at large and completely devoid of rationality. Perhaps this is because you are unable to accept valid criticisms and apply them insightfully. Just a thought.

Posted by: aqueousdb66 at August 19, 2008 12:15 AM

There are very few absolutes in life, most things come in shades of grey and I think most of us are wise enough to know that. I hope that I can look at things in a broader sense rather than from just my own experience. Indeed if that is all I reflected on i would not be as happy as I am.

I was married for 25 yrs and there were many good times and good things about it but it came to an end. There were things i could have done better or different but i didn't. I know for a fact that all men are not like my ex, some are many times better,nicer,kinder or more loveing and many are much worse people. I still like men, generally (lol)...there are a few I wouldn't pass the time of day with, but the same goes for some women.

And so in relation to the topic..people grow, evolve, change at different rates so it is highly probable that in a relationship the level of intimacy will change over time and may even be lost due to these changes. I think now that we are all older though and more stable there is a good chance of meeting someone that travels the rest of lifes journey with us at the same speed.

In any case, regardless, I'm neither giving up nor going on a frantic search....... it will all work out in the end.

Manda :)

Posted by: aquamanda56 at August 19, 2008 12:09 AM

drone, I wouldn't worry about needlessly offending people on here - everyone manages to at some time or another, just because of the way people jump to conclusions about what's actually being said (like I must have!), get their pet issues that upset them triggered, etc.... I wasn't in the slightest bit offended by the "asylum" comment, as I said, and I did misinterpret what you were saying (and agree totally about generalisations about men thinking sex is intimacy, or whatever it was, as being somewhat daft). I thought you were saying people on the blogs had failed at their relationships so weren't the best ones to be commenting on how to be intimate or have a successful one.... sorry, just misunderstood you - way too late to be writing this, it's probably one garbled old mess... night all....

Posted by: malsie at August 18, 2008 11:58 PM

drone, teach us...........................Tell us what intimacy is to you ?

Posted by: outbackdrifter at August 18, 2008 11:43 PM

None of the happily married/partnered couples get to speak here about their relationships, and about the opposite sex drone at August 18, 2008 8:25 PM . Drone, there are a few partnered people on the blogs, Troy, Grego and myself, that's all as far as I know...no wait there are another couple of women but I forget their names at the moment ...but its very tricky blogging about intimacy in your relationship because you have your partner's privacy to consider..so you are right, very few partnered people will post anything.

From my pov, I think you do get a more negative view of men and women from divorced people...as others have said, we have had some bad experiences, and I know some of my happily partnered friends just haven't experienced it. One thing I do notice about my partner who is not divorced is that he has a much more positive attitude to relationships than many divorced guys I have dated...also he deals with conflict by talking it out immediately...conflict thus becomes an opportunity to become closer, to increase the level of intimacy,( instead of a path towards separation). That's a fast way to increase the level of trust and happiness in a relationship.

I'm really interested in what you see as the differences between your generation and mine (I'm 55) ...I agree with you that the level of respect men have for women is greater in the younger generations...and I am curious to know more about it.

Don't worry too much about being seen as argumentative on here, some of us have jobs like yours, and we survive ok on the blogs (with the occasional hiccup through being a bit too confrontational, which we are used to at work), but people continue to talk to you !

Posted by: waterbombe at August 18, 2008 11:39 PM

Posted by: piscesgirl56 at August 18, 2008 9:32 PM:
"the reason older people sound more gely is that we have gone through a lot of experience which have shaped our attitudes, values, ideas ect...when we were your age we were probably thinking the same way you do ..."

In a way, I doubt it. All my immediate family (parents, brother) were in the grave by the time I was 27, after long illnesses in some cases.

My, ah, problems in life, if there are such, come from thinking too old for my age, rather than too young.

Posted by: drone at August 18, 2008 11:29 PM

drone at August 18, 2008 10:13 PM: Go for it, mate. You're more than holding your own intellectually with us wrinklies.

Posted by: timewarp1 at August 18, 2008 11:23 PM

Re. older people again...

I'm thinking of a (now deceased) aunty who wasn't a fan of blacks, or Catholics, migrants, etc... had fairly insular views about most things that wouldn't have changed since she was in her 20s, and frankly, they would just have been the views that her parents had.

But if you dug a bit, there were interesting things there. I think that there is often a mistakenly polarised view about old people... either they are "past it", or we should respect them merely for the fact that they are old.

Posted by: drone at August 18, 2008 10:50 PM

Posted by: piscesgirl56 at August 18, 2008 9:32 PM:
"the reason older people sound more gely is that we have gone through a lot of experience which have shaped our attitudes, values, ideas ect...when we were your age we were probably thinking the same way you do ... the reason I always liked older people is that by the time they get to their 70ies they have accumulated so much life experience that it's delightful just sitting and listening to them. Honestly!"

Yeah, I like listening to older people too. There are always interesting stories and anecdotes.

How interesting they are, though, also kind of depends on what state of mind they lived most of their life through. Some older people are pretty unreflective, and have not changed their views on anything for roughly 40 years. In those cases, well, you kind of enjoy the anecdotes, and take what you can from the conversations.

But older people who have lived an examined life, well, they are absolutely fascinating.

Posted by: drone at August 18, 2008 10:34 PM

malsie at August 18, 2008 2:19 PM: You put it in a nutshell.

Posted by: timewarp1 at August 18, 2008 10:30 PM

jenniferhi at August 18, 2008 8:32 AM wrote "It's possible to have some or all of these things with your partner. It's also possible to be fulfilled by others in your life. (Friends, family, mentors.) And this can be sustaining to complete ones self. True happiness comes from so many sources."

Jen, this is so true. It doesn't all have to come from your partner. And expecting it all from your partner will be an unbearable overload for some partners who do not have enough bandwidth to satisfy your needs. Or not enough just yet, if they're still growing emotionally. The 'nuclear family' was one of the worst ideas to come out of the 1960s.

As a result, many of us do have or have had relationships that satisfied too few of the types of intimacy that we personally crave.

And sometimes you don't even know what you're missing, till you've already got some of the other stuff.

As a man, I put a fairly high priority on sex - fulfilling for both of us, if not totally mind-blowing, which would be even nicer.

But once that's been ticked off the list, I find I have other needs that step up in turn to the front of the queue, as Professor Maslow suggested in the 1940s.
..............................................................

What I see as the main problem for us recycled singles is that we now know too much. Much more than we knew before we'd been through the mill the first time.

We're now sensitised to what we found out by experience that we were missing out on, the last time(s) around. So we want it to be better next time, or we're no better off. Which is a harder ask, and that's the problem.

When I was in the dried-up later stages of an initially-delightful 30-year marriage, the only 2 people I could talk to about my feelings at all were my favourite aunt in her 80s living right across town, that I could only get to see every 3 or 4 weeks, and one of my subbies, whom I saw 3 to 5 evenings a week.

I'd drop goods in to his workshop to be machined or welded at 5.45pm just before he closed, and we'd chat for maybe 10 mins while he degreased his hands, switched everything off and locked up. Then at 7am on my way to work I'd pick the smaller jobs up already done. The first Christmas after I was separated he invited me to Xmas lunch with his family. I was really touched, but my aunt expected me to have it with her, which I'd done for over 40 years.

Next time around I hope to be able to rely on my romantic partner to meet more of my needs for friendship and emotional intimacy, and that's the main reason I'm taking so long to find an approximate match for what I listed as my intimacy offer here at 10.45pm onAugust 15. And thank you to those of you who applauded my list.

I'd better go search the Yellow Pages to look for a suitable restaurant somewhere near Jindalee to suggest for my Wed evening first-date. She said thai, italian, middle eastern or chinese. Any suggestions, Brisbanites?

Posted by: timewarp1 at August 18, 2008 10:27 PM

Posted by: malsie at August 18, 2008 9:42 PM:
"Sure, a lot of people who contribute on the blogs have been through marriage or long-term relationship break ups and are seeking new relationships, but I don't know that that makes them any less knowledgeable than your happily married/partnered friends with regards to issues of love."

I agree entirely, and that's not what I was getting at, I think.

It's more the negative generalisations about the sexes, like the one that set me off, to do with men and intimacy, that I think are more likely to be represented on here than in the general community.

This blog is an unrepresentative sample of general opinion about the general characteristics of men and women. Forgive me for this, but the sum total of people on here are more likely to have axes to grind about the opposite sex than a representative sample taken from the community as a whole, simply because partnered/married people are, for the most part, absent.

This means that the evidence presented on here, if used to make *generalisations* about the characteristics of either men or women, should be taken with a grain of salt.

Posted by: drone at August 18, 2008 10:25 PM

I wonder what the reaction would be if someone posted the comment "women are all the same, they are all after one thing."
Maybe both men and women are all the same, maybe we all want the same thing...if only we did and could be brave enough to both recognise and accept that...such things as love without losing freedom of self, space to get it wrong without being judged in black and white terms, time to consider and adjust without losing the fire and passion, beauty without perceived treason, security without being weighted down, honest relationships without false accusations, friends without having them read as FWBs, financial sharing without loss of financial fun...I guess a relationship where understanding and acceptance does not equate with either feeling hog-tied or being accused of being the jailer.
I don't think relational intimacy is possible without freedom being protected. Anybody want to put me right on this one as I am always ready to learn?

Posted by: espritlibrefemme at August 18, 2008 10:16 PM

piscesgirl56 at August 18, 2008 9:11 PM:

I understand entirely what you are saying about the value of support. Believe me, I'm not knocking anyone, because, as I said I'm sitting right here in the asylum with the rest of you.

I guess it's more when I hear things like "Men, in general, can't separate intimacy from sex"... well, I just don't think that is true, from my own experience, and from other guys I know - and also from female friends who are in satisfying relationships. And I know that those who feel most aggrieved or unsatisfied often tend to extrapolate from their personal experience to the entire population of males/females, because it makes them feel better. Believe me, I've heard similarly implausible generalisations about women from men, as well.

It's more like this... just a caution... I wouldn't want people to form and/or have impressions in general about what men (or women) are like, from people who, statistically speaking, are more likely to have had bad experiences than the population as a whole.

When the lunatics get together, it's important to have some perspective, and realise that sometimes, they do not just provide support for each other, but that they can also inculcate false beliefs. And if support means being incautious about inculcating false beliefs, then it should come with caveats attached, because false, or insufficiently examined beliefs can be just as harmful as lack of support.

If anything I said came across as insensitive, I'm sorry for that. In my, ah, profession, I'm kind of used to having people disagree with me all the time, me disagree with them all the time, and so on. That's probably why some of you were surprised that I didn't react particularly strenuously to the critiques of my profile, and put it down to lack of self-esteem.

I do worry that if I continue to post freely here, I may needlessly offend some people. And that may not be helpful.

Posted by: drone at August 18, 2008 10:13 PM

Hey H2H, isn't that a bit of a generalisation?
Aren't people here speaking from their own personal experience?

If some of the women on these blogs, in your opinion, have a jaundiced view of men then surely that is because maybe they've never actually experienced relationships with well-balanced and kind men?

My experience in a long-term 22 year marriage relationship, was very similar to piscesgirl's.
I also grew up with a father who was (at times) violent and an alcoholic.
We had little to do with our extended family when I was growing up, because my parents didn't want then to see what our life was really like.

I know there are caring and loving men out there (everyone tells me so!) but do you know I have never actually had a close relationship with one?
So if some of us appear a little cynical at times (and don't tell me there aren't thousands of blokes who feel the same about women) maybe it because we have never lived the experience of being truly loved by a man in an adult and respectfiul relationship.

I hope I have taught my sons that it is okay to trust and love a woman and that it is okay to express their feelings.
However, they still occasionally say and do things that would not "make the grade" with a lot of today's young women, the majority of whom have high self-esteem and high expectations of the men in their lives.

I have observed myself, the respect and esteem some of today's younger men seem to show their partners, as expressed by Drone in his post.
However even my still-married friends' partners seem to find it funny to pretend their wife is some kind of dragon lady and act and speak to her disrespectfully, especially when in a mixed group.
These men are aged in their 40s & 50s and they act as if they would find it almost embarrassing if someone was to think they actually loved their wife!
It makes me wonder how many of these marriages will last another decade or so.
Especially when some of my married girl-frinds tell me how "lucky" I am to be able to live my own life!

Posted by: amberlight58 at August 18, 2008 10:10 PM

drone @ 8.25 pm "kind of like asking the other lunatics in the asylum for a mental-health evaluation".
I know what you mean, of course, and take no offence whatsoever to the idea (and in fact something similar has been suggested before on here), but am not so sure I agree.

Sure, a lot of people who contribute on the blogs have been through marriage or long-term relationship break ups and are seeking new relationships, but I don't know that that makes them any less knowledgeable than your happily married/partnered friends with regards to issues of love, intimacy, etc. Let's face it, give some of them a few years, and they too could be here joining us in merry discussion on life, love and the universe ;)

Posted by: malsie at August 18, 2008 9:42 PM

"Drone", the reason older people sound more gely is that we have gone through a lot of experience which have shaped our attitudes, values, ideas ect...when we were your age we were probably thinking the same way you do ... the reason I always liked older people is that by the time they get to their 70ies they have accumulated so much life experience that it's delightful just sitting and listening to them. Honestly!

By the way, despite the fact that I was not lucky enough to find that right partner yet, it never crossed my mind that all men are insensitive...no way! I would not generalise like that, it's silly!

I could never blame my ex partner for the relationship break down any more than I blame myself - in fact I believe that 2 are needed to tango...one has to be realistic and understand past relationship problems as learning experiences - the very moment we start blaming the other for problems , we are losing control over our own destiny, we miss the opportunity to learn the lesson! We might even repeat the same mistake again! Even if the problem was in personality differences, in differences in need for intimacy, or worse: violent partner - we still had the choice to walk away...and that's a lesson too. To know when to walk away, and why did not we walk away early enough? Rather than blaming the other for being the way he/she is...it's also a lesson to know what our legitimate needs are and do not feel guilty for having these needs and expecting them to be met by our partner!...I hope this all makes sense! :)

Posted by: piscesgirl56 at August 18, 2008 9:32 PM

musicteacher at August 18, 2008 2:26 PM: My hand is up and waving for attention, ma'am.

Posted by: timewarp1 at August 18, 2008 9:31 PM

"drone" I understand what you are trying to say, we all had problems in our past relationships and we are still searching for that right person. That's true, however, it does not mean that we have not LEARNED important lesson on that journey! The point of this blog is to share what we have learned and to listen to others' points in order to make sense of our own experiences, also by listening to others we might be able to come to understanding of things we could never make sense of before...this is kind of a support group, where people with similar problems come together, because we actually KNOW what we are talking about. Imagine if happy couples were involved - they would not be able to understand us, might even make us feel more guilty than we already are...the point of problem specific groups is actually: support! Noone can understand you better than the person who walks in your boots...and we all learned something from past mistakes and that knowledge and understanding we share here. We all had good and bad experiences and that experience has taught us about what we really want/do not want for ourselves in the future... :)

I cannot see any generalisations happening here, people are just talking about their own experiences and they dreams and aspirations, about their goals for a happy relationship. Somethimes while writing down our thoughts or answering other people's messages we come to new realisations! That's all very positive and helpful. :)

By the way - it's fact that 'lunatics' in the asylum are the best support for each other, because they KNOW they are not crazy as opposed to staff who never experienced mental illness...have you watch the movie with Jack Nicholson " One flew over the cokoo's nest"...

Posted by: piscesgirl56 at August 18, 2008 9:11 PM

I find the fact that 'Intimacy' is even a topic on these blogs a bit of a conundrum: the reason being that names, Emails, Phone numbers etc. are unrevealed. I know everyone will wax lyrical about how we have to 'trust' someone before meeting them, but still - in the normal course of events - say at a party or social function, we would probably exchange the latter immediately.
Maybe the need to 'protect' identity is partly because I suspect that while there are genuine ppl on this site who are looking for a mate/friends, there are a certain proportion who seem to voyeuristically fixate on engaging in chatroom activity , etc and not want to take things any further - I have had a few experiences to this effect. I also suspect that there are a few quite skilled ppl who have had a lot of experience in hooking someone to engage in these activities.
It also occurred to me that those who had the opportunity to be intimate would be out doing it, rathe