RSVP Blog

Oh, I'm with Amberlight, I've known heaps of psychologists through my job AND I've been their victim as the mother of a difficult child and quite frankly I think psychologists have worse mental health than the average maths teacher.

Posted by: waterbombe at May 20, 2008 8:34 AM

Amberlight @11.39 pm..thank you for sharing your story on this forum, and I am pleased to hear that you eventually received the treatment your son needed.
As you have pointed out,there are good and bad practitioners in all professions. With regards to counselling there are many options available..from someone who has done a counselling course, to the social worker who has completed some psychology subjects..to the clinical psychologist who spends 8 years on average studying psychology, the mind and human behavior. I personally think only the psychologist is equipped to counsel..but then I have an obvious bias.
I have a close friend who is a psychiatrist in private practise..and he tells me that the majority of his patients seek referral to him for marriage guidance, as opposed to ten years ago when he mainly saw patients with mental illness. Times and expectations are changing with consumer needs and expectations.

Posted by: femalepersuasion at May 20, 2008 8:17 AM

This is what lay people commonly refer to as "baggage" and what I know as projection of issues that have been repressed and not dealt with on an unconscious level. Then it surfaces years later..like on these blogs..and all that pain resurfaces.But you need to deal with it.

There are some great books on the market. One in particular is "Are you the one for me?" by Barbara De Angelo..a must read for any one about to embark on a new relationship.

With the community support, counselling and books that are available today, there is no excuse for not being able improve ourselves and the way we relate to others.

Unless you dont want to of course.

Posted by: femalepersuasion at May 20, 2008 7:45 AM

....and who, prey tell, Lynath is your battle against. I have not chosen to battle you. I am here to offer my opinions. It is you who attacks people. I have merely retaliated to your personal nastiness and slurs.
If it is a battle, it is a nonsense one. I, and others, have never said we disagreed that cheating is terrible and damaging. We have simply offered a more human face to the cheater with our understanding and empathy...and dare I say forgiveness.
You can waffle on endlessly about your battle, and all those wunnerful people who have come to your aid, but please don't include me in your childish, narcissistic games that make you feel supported and cherished here in fantasyland. I ain't playing:))

Posted by: istj54 at May 20, 2008 6:55 AM

Edward the 7th, was King from 1901 to 1910, so 9 years was all he got.

I hope Charlie gets a go, as I dont think he will be a rubber stamp.

Posted by: virgil at May 20, 2008 1:06 AM

Lynath,

I dont have to make any comments to make you appear foolish, bitter or twisted...your own comments are doing that for you....and now you are talking to yourself....and with all self-righteousness as well!!

On the issue of cheaters...you asked for 1 example of someone who retains their respect....I gave you 4. No-one says that cheating doesn't undermine certain individuals, but it doesn't seem to damage others either.

Anyway, if its that important for you to think you have won the debate....knock yourself out, your are boring me shitless!!

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 20, 2008 12:47 AM

Lynath, and others.
Just once in 30 years she said to me,
"last night you were a nasty drunk, not like you love" that is when I went onto the light beer, never argued with her, couldn't remember but trusted her enough not to argue. Thank God life was simple for me, with the right woman. To me that was what life was all about, having the right woman as my wife and the mother of my children.
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 20, 2008 12:36 AM

Waterbombe at 10.34pm: You are asking "Why have an affaire, instead of giving your partner a stiff-arm wake-up call?"

My last reply didn't go far enough. It only related to people like you and me. Getting outside our kind of people, why would other people have an affaire?

Have a look at my post below at 6:17pm on May 7th. I think it covers the ground, and yes, it tends to relate to people who are underdog-manipulative and/or circumspect.

More comfortable about sneaking behind their partner's back to get what they want, rather than making a fuss.

I'm guessing a mixture of low self-esteem, resultant low assertiveness skills, and a dash of self-centredness.

But as Perth has recently reminded us a couple of times, I only know about that stuff. I don't have a Licence to fix your mind, and charge you a few hundred for doing so.

Or $150 a fortnight for years, if you're more interested in making a living than fixing people asap, to give them a better life sooner, and give you time to take on more clients. Eric Berne calls that "playing Therapist".

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 20, 2008 12:19 AM

waterbombe at 10.34pm: Agreed with you the first time. Definitely. Now admitting it.

I go further - see the bottom paddock in mine at 12.29pm today, which suggested a way to start working on any marital problems, before they get half so bad.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 19, 2008 11:43 PM

financeman1 at May 19, 2008 9:24 PM
Welcome to the sand pit.
I think one of the attractions of semi anonymous blogging is it allows you to be slightly larger than life. It seems to allow a lot of the girls to reconstitute their virginity and the blokes to wax lyrical.
I'm not so pessimistic about bloggers opinions being unchangeable; we sometimes get testimonials from those who have had their eyes opened. I like to think that if the basis for a point of view is changed by some evidence the opinion will alter too. I don't think that is entirely forlorn.
Your relationship house rules about wearing a party hat when heading out are standard, or should be, FWB issue.
Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 19, 2008 11:42 PM

Hi Bob,
I certainly don't think that a person who has cheated and sincerely regretted the hurt that this caused others, is beyond redemption.
Everyone makes mistakes, we are only human, after all.
However, it seems that for some people, the only thing they actually regret about cheating on their partner, is the fact that they were caught and that resulted in some unpleasant consequences for them.
The fact that their actions have hurt another person is of no consequence to them and some people also try to blame their partner for their behaviour.
No matter how unsatisfactory a relationship is, no one "deserves" to be betrayed so deeply.
Surely as adults we are responsible for the choices we make in life?
No one else can "make" us do anything?

If a person is not willing to take responsibility for their behaviour and the fact that this has hurt someone else, then aren't they just going to go through life continually leaving bruised and broken people in their wake? Future partners, their children, betrayed friends?
A peson who has cheated in the past, is not necessarily always going to cheat on a partner of course, they can change but to change you have to take ownership of and responsibility for your actions.
Looking for excuses and blaming someone else every time you behave poorly, is not going to result in any personal growth or change the way you cope with the ups and downs of life and relationships.
You can't change what you don't acknowledge. (Isn't that Dr. Phil's Mantra?)

Hi Marcus,
Re your post @ 12:01. I don't believe that my views are based on Moral Absolutism.
I just believe that we should go through life caring about our fellow inhabitants of planet earth and causing as little pain to others as possible.
I have always taken responsibility for my own behaviour. Of course, that doesn't mean I don't make mistakes or inadvertantly hurt others wthout meaning to, but I try my best to treat others with the same consideration and respect that I would like others to treat me.
Maybe, that is because of my upbringing. (A point mentioned by femalepersuasion)
My mother refused to take any responsibility for her behaviour, and I saw the pain and hurt that she inflicted on others and the unbelievable lies she told to avoid any negative consequences.
Which only resulted in more hurt to others as she would even spread malicious rumours and untruths about people who had only tried to help her, to justify her appalling behaviour.
My angst about cheating is only because I fail to see the justification in hurting another person, simply to meet personal gratification.
I would find it hard to live with myself if I knowlingly and deliberately deceived, and by doing this, hurt someone who loved me.

Femalepersuasion @ 9:31 AM
No not at all, that would be quite ridiculous.

However, I have met a few psychologists who may have read all the theory, but had none of the life experience to actually understand someone's reality.
For example, the young psychologist, unmarried and having no children of her own, who helpfully informed me when I sought assistance with my hyperactive toddler, that I was trying "to break the cycle of violence" that I had experienced while growing up.
Yes, surprisingly, that was why I was there and not belting my son black and blue as my mother had done to my sister!
After 'analyzing' me, she informed me and my husband, that I was an "unfulfilled mother", (just the ammunition my husband needed to justify his opinion that I was somehow mentally unstable; his favoutite saying for months was "Even the psychologist said..........") but she never actually helped me with any strategies that I could use to deal with my son's behaviour!

Psychology also 'helped' when I went to CAMHS with the same child, aged 7 who was coming home from school disressed with his clothes covered in soap and who insisted I put disinfectant in the washing machine when washing his clothes.
That was apparently my fault again because working 2 night shifts a week, with 2 other children under 3, my son was angry because I obviously didn't have time for him! This 'diagnosis' was made however, without the counsellor actually ever speaking to my son, just visiting my house at 9:00AM in the morning after I had come home from my second night shift, and my 2 little ones were trying to get my attention after spending the day before with their paternal grandmother.

Finally at age 11, my son got the help he needed from a psychologist at the WCH in Adelaide, who recognised he had OCD. And who strangely enough, didn't blame me for his problems, but helped him (and trusted me to help him as well) to overcome his difficulties with several months of therapy.
That same young man is now on his second overseas trip, backpacking by himself through 5 different countries.

I have read that OCD can run in families. Interestingly his father is a hoarder whose 40x20 foot shed is so full he can only just walk through it (can't actually work in it!), who can't put the car in the carport due to all the stuff he has in it, and who has a study so full that he can't actually use it. Apparently hoarding is a form of OCD.
But as his father was never 'analyzed', that was never picked up, so it must have been me who, because I has a traumatic childhood, was the problem parent!

So if I appear a little cynical about psychology and psychologists, I am!!
Even though I find psychology very interesting, I feel that there are some psychologists who think that they are "the experts", and that people who have troubled pasts must automatically have long-standing deep-seated problems and little insight into their own psyche.

ISTJ @ 6:12 PM,
Lynath may not have been nice to you, but
what exactly is your reason for that "below the belt" comment?

Posted by: amberlight58 at May 19, 2008 11:39 PM

Hi Lynath, in response to your post at 10:34, no it has never been an open relationship because the ladies all had a different view on cheating to myself. I also assume that in order to have an open relationship the other person would be aware that their partner was seeing other people, which would definitely violate my "ostrich" rule.

However I respected their rules just as they respected mine, so no cheating was done by either side. As you said "changing the rules" can only be done partway through the relationship if both partners agree, and the chances of your partner just saying "yeah go ahead and have a bit on the side" are roughly the equivalent of George Bush growing a brain and solving the problems in the Middle East.

Posted by: financeman1 at May 19, 2008 11:33 PM

Bob, well said, Who did cheat on whom in the Charles and Di saga?
Your Ps is food for thought too, for as Packer was dying, it was his first wife who was by his side. When JfK died, Jackie was by his side, am not sure about Churchill. I somehow think that the relationship between some couples transcends the physical and their emotional bond is so strong that affairs by one or the other cannot break those bonds, just as some couples can be faithfully and exclusively married for 50 years, but there is no joy, no love and great loneliness, just a marriage of unhappy convenience.

Posted by: kianee at May 19, 2008 11:30 PM

Waterbombe, maybe those who do cheat in a relationship find burying their head in the sand a better option than confronting and addressing their problems in the first place............K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 19, 2008 11:12 PM

OG tonight: I admire the Prince of Wales for that, but he would be able to do very much less for those causes, once he was King and harnessed directly behind the UK parliament's behind.

His father was able to speak out on a number of social issues that his mother could never broach.

As to Perth and her reality: As I said somewhere, perhaps today, I am so glad that she and ooolala do exist (to name a couple of RSVP resident identities, not quite at random, eh?)

By defining them as glove puppets (not just crude sock puppets like Agro) who are actually scripted by a bloke, I can enjoy pretending to brawl with them in a way that I would be constrained from, if I believed they were real women.

If they were real women, they'd have the choice of reacting to my words in different ways than they do.

And if they are actually real women pretending to be puppets pretending to be real women, they're even cleverer than I realised, and I'm even more attracted to engaging them in a little street theatre.

It's all about having a bit of harmless teasing fun with thick-skinned worthy opponents. Which appeals to the playful person hidden away inside the dinasour.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 19, 2008 11:06 PM

Lynath: Dont worry, the troops are still in the mist to back you up.
Your doing very well. Your the one with the big canon, and thats why they are all screaming as they shoot all their little arrows at you like little mice trying to avoid the trap of what they know is their own destination for doom.
Go Waterbombe, Go Lynath, Go Amberlight, shoot all the screamers down. They are building their own days of enlightenment, which could only be experienced with pain.
Wouldn't they hate to be the victim?

Posted by: lonelyheart44 at May 19, 2008 10:34 PM

Could someone shed a bit of light on this....I asked earlier, so sorry to be repeating myself, but I really don't get this....... if your partner is unhappy, why do they not just leave, even temporarily, to force a confrontation? Wouldn't something like "I'm not happy so I'm going to Mums/my sister's/my friend's place for 3 months" make you sit up and think "Crikey, my relationship is in trouble! I better do something about it!". Can't we all do that? Why do some people have to have sex with someone else and THEN move out? (Couldn't they just move out without the sex and save us the pain?)

I honestly don't think there is a justification for cheating...it's easy to say "This isn't working. I'm out of here for a few weeks" if you want to give your partner a serious wake up call. Why do so much damage?

Posted by: waterbombe at May 19, 2008 10:34 PM

financeman1 so you do that with no hidden charges or costs to either of you?

apparently you have an open relationship and the ground rules are set(although I did notice you said "my rules" )
That is different to making an agreement to monogamy and then changing the rules when it suits without one party consenting to the change.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 19, 2008 10:34 PM

greg07 thankyou for the insight.
I understand that affairs are so enticing initially because they are thrilling and sexual based encounters. without the hindrance of any day to day realities getting in the way. eg there are no bills to pay no sick or fighting children and no partner who is no longer a novelty.
as you say you exited the affair because you knew it was just physical, and as such had no need to both with issues of trust and commitment. However, if you had tried to take the affair to an ordinary relationship level then things would no doubt have been quite different given a little time and those issues would have become important.

Many a wife has ridden out an affair or multiple. Problems arise when the other person starts to make ultimatums and demands or threats in order to bring the situation to a head.
I had an issue with the turn a blind eye scenario though, I found it impossible to compromise my own integrity initially and definitely so ongoing, so therefore that was
not a sustainable option for me.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 19, 2008 10:29 PM

Ah, Og that is where you are incorrect.
I don't think l have said l am anti royal.
I am in fact a Pom.
Having been brought up by a monarchist mother and father, l have some knowledge of things royal..
I think that Queen Elizabeth is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't, no matter what she does.
No doubt that the stiff upper lip has cost the royals many a supporter.

The circumstances surrounding her ascension to the throne have formed her lifelong duty to Crown and Country, sometimes seen wrongly in the eyes of many, Diana's death being the perfect example.

However l think that at the end of her life, whenever that may be, there will never be another reign to match hers.............K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 19, 2008 10:24 PM

financeman at 9.24pm: Welcome to the ego exhibition. Good on you for opening with a minority viewpoint.

If you can find a lady ostrich, you can both take it in turns to look away while the other one sneaks off for a bit on the side. If that's a good idea.

So glad to see you're into "pointy hats". So was my son. He'd have been 42 last week.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 19, 2008 10:20 PM

Bob; I have said I am involved with this subject on another level not just on a personal experience level. I have not said what that involvement is.(and won't)You have made your own conclusions and once again made foolish statements designed to belittle me or make me appear foolish in order to lessen my opinions.

The Diana story as Kaz has already pointed out is wrong.
That they later agreed to have some form of open marriage given their unusual circumstances was an open agreement.
I disagree that the cheaters have retained the full measure of respect and dignity.
How many Clinton and Monica jokes abound? What about the parodies in song and verse and comedy sketches.. No cigar is safe from a smirking sniggering reference to something a little grubby.
Same for all of them.
The lesser known suffer a more subtle loss of respect in the community in which they live or the workplace. They will always be followed by whispers and innuendo and definitely a lack of respect. There previous good is forever tainted.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 19, 2008 10:13 PM

Virg, in you two posts in the 8 pm's
Sorry to disappoint you but I agee wholeheartedly. Charles is the only potential world leader to properly address the world crisis on the ecology as he has done for years. It was Clinton that decided me to give up smoking.
Kaz @ 9.20 pm
yep like Vic, hung on till Anility struck.

Finance@ 9.24 Well said sir, and on behalf of Marcus we welcome you, LOL. Liked that one Ladies, betcha,lol

Posted by: oldergent at May 19, 2008 10:12 PM

Dear Diary,
It has been a wet and dreary day today. All was quiet for some time in the early hours, but since then there has been occasional rounds fired and a few vicious assaults on my position.

I have been under fire on several fronts for days (possibly weeks) but will never give up. One of the enemy tried to lure me out of the trenches with various diabolical insults and may have wounded Amberlight,but I held fast as I was hoping more reinforcements were on the way...and I could see the enemy was also short on ammunition. They are very cruel and have caused me to wear out two manicures while engaging with them, but I will continue to do what I must...
Relief has finally arrived tonight ..I can hear the roar of the Waterbombe ....

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 19, 2008 9:52 PM

Kaz, I'm with you. I don't think E2R would be too keen on that Camilla becoming Mrs King. Not with their respective values.

The Duke of Windsor chose divorcee Mrs Simpson over the throne, and did an enforced bunk. Prince Charles has got his divorcee Mrs P.B. (now finally street legal instead of on the side) without having to do a bunk. Yet.

Pastor, if we're talking abdication, when E2R finally hangs up her spurs at 90 or 100, I'd like to see creaky old Charlie make an honest Royal of himself at last by saying Pass, so that the king hat goes straight to his kid. How about that?

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 19, 2008 9:48 PM

Waterbombe @5.11 pm
There are 3 definitions . Simply for all the jargon "you bloody did it"end of story.
TW. The second time in memory Sondheims song has been mentioned without the last line :"don't bother their here"unfortunately they "the clowns" are usually misdirected in their critisims and delusions, as in Virgils perception that you and I are as 1 person. We both know and are undoubtably relieved he is in fairy land again. Get over it Bill, Perth is real until you can prove she is not, conjecture is not proof. As I can see it, nothing you say or do is going to change her opinion of you, so you are free to ignore or continue to make a fool of yourself.
Bob @6.21
Finally you put into words what I have been wanting to say, cheating is in the mind of those that perceive they have been cheated upon.
Grego7,@ 7.58
True, I have seen that several times in mates.
but try to get that over to the poor others who are the perceived victims.

Kaz,
Pretty obvious you don't like the Royals but heaven forbid we ever have to elect a pollie or an ex pollie for president. Then we can put our heads between our legs and kiss this country and all it stands for,"as we know it" goodbye. As to Di, "Virgin"? try Earls Court. Our Virg would have been more of one.
Cheers OG.
Of course Karina I have kept a hard copy, you have been good but let this one float

Posted by: oldergent at May 19, 2008 9:47 PM

Femalepesuasion I know you are not laying blame personally. I was referring(not very clearly) to some counselling techniques or ideas which in my opinion still seek to force the victim to accept blame for the betrayal and ask them to stop laying blame while somehow forgetting that the cheater needs to first accept full responsibility for their choice and actions.
Unless the cheater does that then there is no hope for saving the relationship.
Again it comes back to reason and justification. The reason the relationship was in trouble was one thing. Those reasons can never be used as justification for an affair.
That is never going to prevent affairs happening, but the fact remains there is never any justification.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 19, 2008 9:29 PM

I'd like to thank all of you for restoring my faith in the human race. As a new blogger, and a new RSVP member, it's refreshing to find that the same petty character flaws we find in people each day are replicated online, except in a far more vicious and personal manner.

I'd always viewed these types of blogs as an excellent way to air an opinion and then discuss it, but I've yet to find a person who would accept my point of view after I/they made a personal attack (maybe some of those with more age and experience have found differently?).

Everyone has their opinion, which is never wrong, it's only THEIR opinion. They are entitled to believe anything they want, even that the earth is flat, and no amount of attacking them will change that view, so why bother?

From my own point of view I have a slightly different point of view on the whole cheating perspective. My rules are that my partner can do whatever she likes but (a) the guy involved has to wear a condom if they're having sex and (b) I don't ever find out about it.

This attitude seems to remove most of the temptation to cheat, because it's no longer "forbidden". I also don't want my partner feeling guilty because they had a drunken pash with someone, and I DEFINITELY don't want to know about it!

Say what you like about the ostriches but they have a great philosophy, until the truck hits them they never see it coming!

Posted by: financeman1 at May 19, 2008 9:24 PM

He has had a pretty rough trot, any decent mum would have retired years ago.

Posted by: virgil at May 19, 2008 8:44 PM

Virgil, the circumstances in which Queen Elizabeth came to the Crown, and her dedication to her duty show that most likely she will never abdicate in favor of Charles.......................K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 19, 2008 9:20 PM

Perth at 7.20pm about mine at 6.27pm: Oh yes! You are so right!

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 19, 2008 8:56 PM

What about Bill Clinton?
He retained respect after cheating, (on several occasions?) and compared to "dumber than a rock" Bush is way in front, in the respect stakes.

Posted by: virgil at May 19, 2008 8:48 PM

Not that I wish to see the demise of the Queen, but it would be great to see Charlie become King.

In his acceptance speech, he could borrow word from Ted Whitten and Jon Brown and say "we stuck it right up them "

He has had a pretty rough trot, any decent mum would have retired years ago.

Posted by: virgil at May 19, 2008 8:44 PM

Not that l am one for specifics but Bob, you have the Charles and Di thing a tad skewed... His affair with Camilla was happening before and after his marriage to Diana..... He reportedly spent the night with Camilla at his London home 2 nights prior to his wedding..... l doubt that tiddlywinks or a game of chess was on the agenda......

He also exchanged gifts with her, hers to him was a set of cufflinks which he wore on his honeymoon. All documented by royal biographers....... with approval from Charles.

Her Maj, Queen Elizabeth, rarely acknowledges Camilla, even after her marriage to Charles.
Ahh, nothing like the aristocracy...........K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 19, 2008 8:08 PM

greg07 I am very interested in your comment " .I at least had the good sense not to stay with the person I had the affair with "
What did you actually think of that person at the time of the affair and afterwards?
Did the attraction disappear immediately the affair was discovered and the exit from the marriage accomplished?

Lynath, sorry for the delay in my response.After it hit the fan and the marriage was exited the "affair" continued for some years. Mainly because the physical side of things was pretty good, dare I say,fanatstic. I think you have a view that couples in an affair cant trust each other. That is not so.The "affair" finally ran its course and we parted on good company.It was good sense by me because it was a realtionship basied on purely the physical.

I suspect that most affairs are physically based ( Yes I know that good sex really occurs in the head not the nether regions ) but I cant imagine anyone had an affair in which they did not enjoy the sex.

That does not excuse the betrayal.but I suspect some men are just motivated by the physical. In such cases the "smart" wife would be better to ride it out rather tahn over-reacting.

The emotional involvemnt of sex for men is after all fundamentally different from that of women.
rgds grego

Posted by: grego7 at May 19, 2008 8:02 PM

greg07 I am very interested in your comment " .I at least had the good sense not to stay with the person I had the affair with "
What did you actually think of that person at the time of the affair and afterwards?
Did the attraction disappear immediately the affair was discovered and the exit from the marriage accomplished?

Lynath, sorry for the delay in my response.After it hit the fan and the marriage was exited the "affair" continued for some years. Mainly because the physical side of things was pretty good, dare I say,fanatstic. I think you have a view that couples in an affair cant trust each other. That is not so.The "affair" finally ran its course and we parted on good company.It was good sense by me because it was a realtionship basied on purely the physical.

I suspect that most affairs are physically based ( Yes I know that good sex really occurs in the head not the nether regions ) but I cant imagine anyone had an affair in which they did not enjoy the sex.

That does not excuse the betrayal.but I suspect some men are just motivated by the physical. In such cases the "smart" wife would be better to ride it out rather tahn over-reacting.

The emotional involvemnt of sex for men is after all fundamentally different from that of women.
rgds grego

Posted by: grego7 at May 19, 2008 7:58 PM

Amazing how the dinosaur typing has speeded up, gone from half a page per afternoon to monumental speed including punctuation. Some people will do anything to get attention from their imaginary 'friends'.

Posted by: iaminperth at May 19, 2008 7:20 PM

Good points about JFK and Prinncess Di, Bob. They did retain respect even though they were cheaters, that's true. But what I still don't get is, if your partner is unhappy, why do they not just leave, even temporarily...to force a confrontation? Why use sex with someone else to force you to a realisation that something is wrong? I mean, they just don't seem to have much in the way of guts if they do that.

Posted by: waterbombe at May 19, 2008 7:08 PM

iaminperth at 3:45pm posted:

"No Persuasion, Not directed at you at all, directed at the old dopey one who thinks that by proof reading someones essays he can become a psychologist. Probably if he watches Greys Anatomy enough he may become a brain surgeon. If he were anything of a psychologist he would not be so angry all the time and also stretching the truth so many times for want of a better word. Just feel sorry for him and let him rant and rave, he's obviously got nothing better to do with the rest of his life."

Oh Perth, you are so delightfully haughtily supercilious. It's even nicer than if you talked dirty! So rubbish me some more! Please pretty please!

It's not just the attention - I can get that from TLD - it's being put down so skilfully that appeals to me. Come on now - I'm waiting!!

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 19, 2008 6:27 PM

Lynath,

Funny thing is we are both arguing that cheating is wrong....I dont think that there is a dispute there. Difference is you see it as black and white and I see shades of grey.

Example is Chalie and Di, but think about this. Charles was forced by duty to give up the woman he loved because she was not acceptable to the establishment....everyone in the world knew this to be the case. He marries Diana who admits she knew he didn't love her before the wedding .

Finally, she has an affair because she is in a loveless marriage...he then too has an affair...the marriage ends.

So Lynath...who cheated whom in this situation.....shades of grey? Charlie seems to cop all of the flak about this whole sordid tale; but everyone knew he loved someone else before he got (was forced to get) married.

Bob

PS I might add to Diana; JFK, Winston Churchill, Kerry Packer (though apparently Ros knew about it),

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 19, 2008 6:21 PM

My very, very last words on this topic...sometimes....yes sometimes...it is the victim's fault and they need to look to their own behaviours to understand why people treat them a certain way..

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 18, 2008 10:22 PM "...I can understand why someone would start working nights rather than coming home!

Posted by: istj54 at May 19, 2008 6:12 PM

Lynath,

Sorry if I misconstured that you are some type of counsellor...I assumed that you meant you were running those seesions you spoke about, not attending them as a patient.....someone mentioned 10 years earlier...is that true? If so, move over Marcus, I think your longevity record has just been busted.

The problem for you Lynath is that you cant let go of your angst, so enjoy the life that you have...though I cant see how you can whilst hanging on to angst.

Name one cheater who has retained respect and dignity....try Pricess Diana....and self-confessed at that!!

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 19, 2008 5:51 PM

Dictionary definitions for today: (second try)

circumscribed - restricted, as in alcohol intake of designated driver.

circumspect - cautious, watchful, maybe even sneaky, as in making sure your two women don't ever find out about one another.

circumpect - late worm, attacked by a ring of early magpies.

Is that OK now, Carina? Just trying to lighten things up a bit....

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 19, 2008 5:44 PM

lifebegins47 at 2:08pm: Karina has just beaten me to the draw. No no no no Yes! We all LOVE the puppets. Leave them be.

They are the source of at least half of the fun on these blogs, whether you believe in fairies like Virgil and fantasise meeting them, or just brawl with them as I do.

Look at what Perth was justsaying to me at 3.45pm. What real person would say that? And if they did, it would be quite offensive, eh?

But if I believe she's a puppet, I see it as a scripted reply to what I'd said, it becomes a phoney war. I can get quite nasty back, and that's fun. A big relief from being my Mum's 'good big boy' all the time, and 'setting a good example' for my orphaned much-littler brothers..

The puppets have life because we talk back to them. I remember Eastof waxing ecstatic a week or two ago, because someone had finally legitimised her by replying to her.

So as well as us needing them, they need us. But we need them more, because there are more of us to be entertained.

If Mr S retired his whole troupe, including the couple I'm not sure of yet, it would be a great loss, and you'd be stuck mainly with serious people like FP, istj, TLD and me, taking it in turns to write long and heavy on serious topics like cheating.

The SBS doco, without the Tom and Jerry cartoon for comic relief. Bring in the clowns!

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 19, 2008 5:29 PM

Of course the aftermath of a betrayal can be positive...the betrayed person can get rid of a cheater who would cause even more heartache in the future, and be free to find a more honest person for a relationahip.

And there are plenty of monogamous abusive relationships. So its not cut and dried, black and white. It's not monogamy or multiple partners that is the issue here, it's dishonesty.

Cheating is done without the partner's knowledge, isn't it? Otherwise it's called an "open relationship". If you want to have multiple partners, why not just tell your main partner that and take whatever consequences there are? They may stay; they may leave you. Either way, you've been honest. It's the dishonesty that is morally wrong... I think that's the main point. Dishonesty takes 2 forms: by comission (you lied) or omission (you didn't volunteer the truth when you knew it would matter) . Some people seem to be saying that omission can be morally ok because 'what you don't know can't hurt you'... nup. The definition is you didn't volunteer the truth when you knew it would matter. If you acted in your interests at the expense of your partner's interests then you damaged someone to gain an advantage for yourself. Hardly behaviour worth respecting.

Posted by: waterbombe at May 19, 2008 5:11 PM

TLD at 3.48pm: Thank you for your very kind words. Feedback like that makes the long laborious grind of authentic essay-writing worthwhile. Even for two-finger typists.

And I don't think it's the age. I believe it's the experience of what worked and what didn't, and some wisdom from carefully reviewing our own experiences and others'.

I thank RSVP very sincerely for giving me in the blogs so much fly-on-the-wall access to a wide range of others' experience and their resulting wisdom. Including some first-post jewels from newbies.

And I specially thank you and the half-dozen others who are the intellectual and emotional core of our deeper discussions. Including Marcus, when focussed on the brains that are in his head.

You have changed my thinking more in the last 6 months than anything else has in the last twenty years. So I'm keeping my ears open, and my values ready for ongoing upgrades at any moment.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 19, 2008 4:50 PM

Lyneth..I am not blaming anyone at all. Psychology in relationship counselling deals with first understanding ourselves. Everone needs to be able to do this to navigate relationships, deal with conflict and understand intimacy in order to be able to relate.
Each person is unique and each marriage partnership is unique. Because of this, the ways to improve a partnership are many and varied. The way you and your partner go about working on your relationship will be different to the way another couple might. There is no right or wrong. However, both partners need to be willingly involved and for this to occur their needs to be self awareness on both parts, or at the very least a willingness to look at our own ways of relating and behaving within love relationships.

A lot of people have the mistaken view that counselling deals with getting the relationship back on track..but it is more than this..you cant do that unless you yourself are aware and are prepared to stop laying blame.

Posted by: femalepersuasion at May 19, 2008 4:39 PM

Dictionary definitions for today:

restricted, as in alcohol intake of designated driver.

cautious, watchful, maybe even sneaky, as in making sure your two women don't ever find out about one another.

Peace and love to all (or ask for a smiley face, if you're picture-it rather than literate.)

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 19, 2008 4:15 PM

Just4funover40 the emotional versus the no strings attached was done to death on the Friends with Benefits blog.

Marcus I am not sure what reality you live in(Wikipaedia World?) but I am happy to live in the one where we all enjoy living and following the basic guidelines for social harmony..eg The Ten Commandments and versions of depending on where and with whom the accident of birth has deposited you in the world.
The 5o years I have so far spent have been made all the more pleasant by the general adherence to laws and general social politeness.It is because of this order that we are the privileged, happy, lucky country I believe.
Therefore it is in the context of the actual world we live in, the world where we have accepted the rules and constraints in order to survive and progress as a group that informs our stand on the act of betrayal.

There are more than adequate reasons which prove betaying someone is morally reprehensible and unjustifiable.
Emotional and psychological abuse is the first. You would probably say you don't support physical abuse, so why is this different?
It would be interesting to have some statistics on suicides and crimes of passion which are a direct consequence of betrayal, and it is not always the betayed involved quite often it is the spurned intruder into the relationship. If you don't believe that betrayal has far reaching serious consequences then think again.

Can you think of one public figure who has retained the respect and dignity they once had when they are caught out as dishonest cheaters? Integrity is something to be valued very highly.
All you sor called instances of justification are of course in support of the cheaters. That is what they do ..try any method to justify their weakness at the expense of others. In my world abuse is never justified.

I do not doubt that the aftermath of a betrayal may end up being positive for the betrayed , and that some monogomous situations are negative. The point is that we have as much choice as we want to change our situations if we are unhappy. Abuse should never be one of them.

.FP I am concerned about your comment "the role of the psychologist is to help you discover why you react in that way..and to question whether you have developed your *self* enough to be able to create a rewarding relationship."

Another ';blame the vicitm" idea. For anyone to be told they may have a problem with their 'self' and ability to create a rewarding relationship when they are not the one doing the cheating, lying and betraying...seems a little wrong to me.....
great justification though for the cheater
"You were not developed enough to create a rewarding relationship so you forced me to do it"

timewarp1 at May 19, 2008 12:25 PM
that was a great post. I admire the extra 20 years of wisdom on some of us evident therein.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 19, 2008 3:48 PM

No Persuasion, Not directed at you at all, directed at the old dopey one who thinks that by proof reading someones essays he can become a psychologist. Probably if he watches Greys Anatomy enough he may become a brain surgeon. If he were anything of a psychologist he would not be so angry all the time and also stretching the truth so many times for want of a better word. Just feel sorry for him and let him rant and rave, he's obviously got nothing better to do with the rest of his life.

Posted by: iaminperth at May 19, 2008 3:45 PM

Hi lifebegins47,
I wish I could, but unfortunately if I go down that path it will probably cause a lot of distress on the blog. Feel free to suggest other blog topics though
Cheers,
Karina

Posted by: rsvpproducttest3 at May 19, 2008 3:39 PM

Malsie, Timewarp..thanks for clarifying the comments. For me this highlights how posts can be misconstrued and meanings misunderstood when none are intended for two simple reasons..firstly that not everyone reads all the comments made over the past couple of days..and secondly..that comments are made on the posts without reference to who they are aimed at, which can cause confusion.

So apologies IaminPerth.

As for you Abckenny....you think I have an ego because I question comments that could be directed at me because they detail qualifications that I happen to have..straight after I have posted.

And you say you are looking for a woman who says what she means..and means what she says?? Are you sure about that??

Maybe you might jump to the same conclusion if someone posted a comment right after yours, not mentioning you by name for instance,,,but directing it at a 5ft 8"man with high school qualifications..maybe you would presume it was directed at you.

And please do not tell me what I need to pay attention to.How patronising are you? I make my own decisions as to how much of the blogs I choose to read.

I am also not interested in your opinion on how a man who doesnt know me , such as yourself, perceives my ego state from his own circumpect view on life.

Posted by: femalepersuasion at May 19, 2008 2:40 PM

bonny8 at 1:03pm: Good point, but to put your money where your mouth is, why not show your nice honest up-to-date photo, without demanding a kiss before a man gets to see what he's actually chasing?

I believe that only the more desperate or excessively-literate men bother at all with profiles that have the photo hidden.

To send a kiss out should involve an intention to meet the person at least once, and many bloggers have said that a lot of men kiss them and ask for their photo password, then when they've seen the photo, that's the sudden end of it.

Showing the photo up front can save both of you from disappointment later, once it is finally seen.

And the people who kiss you will then already know what you look like, and be OK with that.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 19, 2008 2:28 PM

I agree with Bonny that there is a lot more to cheating than physical acts in a relationship, but how far does deception go before its called cheating?
Have read the blogs for a long time and really good points are missed by those that continue age old, and topic transferred gripes. Karina can a blog be started for those that want to hash out once and for all who is real and not real, who is hiding and why and do thay have the right to do so, who is telling the truth and who isnt, let us know how it turns out...and the winner is???..
I for one take each comment at face value, dont care to over think them and enjoy new and refreshing comments.
So back to topic again...have been cheated on, have dealt with it and moved on, sadly its life and people make errors in judgement, often not really wanting to hurt the ones they love.
Thats how I chose to view it anyway.
Have a great day.

Posted by: lifebegins47 at May 19, 2008 2:08 PM

Marcus at 12.36pm: You talking about mine at 12.25pm today? Where I thanked you for adding another dimension to this discussion?

Real people pay no 'tention to manipulators' throwaway lines like yours at 12.36.

Get specific with your criticism of others' arguments like an intelligent adult, mate, or keep on with your illustrated main leisure activity.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 19, 2008 2:03 PM

FP at 12.08pm: Oh dear oh dear. Sorry they knotted themselves. Try starching them.

Those who study the blogs dispassionately and impersonally would have realised that the cat-owning puppy-lover and horse-rider (bareback?) was having a go at me, in response to mine of 11.47pm last night. My response to hers is under censorship at the moment.

Maybe I can put words into Perth's mouth (what fun to take turns) and reply with an amendment of what you just said to her:

"My comments were in answer to some points that Timewarp raised, not you, so your response seems inappropriate."

Peace and joy to all who enter here. I'm off to see a customer, as soon as the 4MBS jazz finishes. (Car radio died.)

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 19, 2008 1:41 PM

Wow, What an ego.Female persuasion.
I trust that you will pay more attention to detail if YOU do indeed counsel any one.Obviously perth was referring to old Bill not you.....then again they do say if the cap fits.

Posted by: abckenny at May 19, 2008 1:33 PM

It is beyond me why someone, perth in this instance, would get so upset by it being inferred you are a sock puppet. Perth it does appear to get up your nose by your continuing references. The old campainers often use the sock puppet thing to rattle those they feel will respond. Even those towers of virtue ie: lynath resort to this when all else fails. If you are a SP keep going the way you are, if not just ignore it. It will get bored and wander onto somebody else.

Troy

Posted by: troyohboy at May 19, 2008 1:30 PM

FP, I took iaminperth's comment to be directed at timewarp actually, not you - could be wrong, though.

Posted by: malsie at May 19, 2008 1:24 PM

Virgil at 11.26am: That's the right attitude!

Perth at 10.25am: I'm glad to see you differentiating between knowing something, which only lets you use the knowledge, and the further step of having a Ticket which proves that someone else believes you know it. That lets you charge people heaps, for using the very same knowledge.

I'd be a lot richer if I had a ticket for each of the fields where I happen to know as much as the average lowest-level professional does.

You are also correct about the slow typing. If I was being paid by the word, I'd be more tempted to hurry, to get a decent return on the time invested.

But when I'm doing it for fun I dawdle, and sometimes the phone rings and I'm interrupted for an hour or more in mid-sentence. Or I take a meal-break or read the paper for a bit, in the middle. I enjoy multi-tasking.

And if you're talking about my post late yesterday arvo:

timewarp1 at 5:54pm: "oohlala at 5.07pm: I see you're cooking red herring for dinner tonight. What's your recipe?"

1) Not a page. 2) Took me about 2 minutes, when I got home out of the wind and caught up on my blog reading since before lunch.
.............................................................

Perth at 10.30am: "Methinks the lady doth protest too much." Or was it a dose of Reality Therapy?
................................................................

OG at 11.13am: Thanks for the recipe. Next time a cold gets real with me, I'll try it.

Came home from cold, windy tennis last night with a sniffle, but excess bedding (a cot blanket above the hips, as well as the usual all-over surf towel) fixed it by morning.

Seeyez all.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 19, 2008 1:21 PM

Cheating, lets start at the beginning, How many have posted a 'Photo' that is years out of date, The best laugh I have had was when one man posted a photo that was so out of date it was silly and he must have lied about his age. his sounded ok when he talked on the phone but when I meet I had a job to keep a straight face, thats cheating and do they think they can get away with it, my photo is me out for they day with my daughter its a everyday photo and I think that is a honest photo and I am not cheating any one by showing it.

Posted by: bonny8 at May 19, 2008 1:03 PM

Warped, mate. There are sock puppets and jock puppets. I think you are manipulating the latter.
Cheers Marquis.

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 19, 2008 12:36 PM

Thank you Marcus for adding some philosphy to all the psychology - a skeleton to hang the arguments on.

Discussing this topic has escalated into a very big argument, with several of our main contributors progressively building enough ego-involvement to get them up on tall soap-boxes, the better to preach their messages to all our readers.

Which is appropriate - this is an enormously-important topic for society, and especially for our readers, seeing that most of us are hoping for some kind of new physical relationship in the near future.

Including our admittedly married readers looking for "only friendship," defined as a bit on the side as well, if they can get to wangle it, and the ones who pretend they're not still legally married, because they define their wife/husband as the bit on the side that they won't tell their new lovers about, until they've hooked them.
...............................................................

I loved the quote from "Reach for the sky" where tin-legs Bader's Squadron Leader carpeted him for some aerial hooning which had wasted his plane and the bottom end of both his legs.

"Rules" he said "are mde for the blind obedience of fools, and the guidance of wise men."

He was talking about a priori rules, ranging from the 10 commandments to local speed limits, and not wearing thongs into a licensed club.
................................................................

I believe that the rules were usually made in the hope that they would benefit the populace as a whole, who are seen as including fools who need strong external control, because they don't have strong inbuilt altruistic value systems that they obey all the time.

In a free country, that is. Not talking about rules made to tyrannise a captive population, like no contraception allowed for members of some religions. So they'll well-feed the clergy, and outbreed the enemy.

So I believe that the instructions for living given in the bible, the koran and the laws of the state of Queensland were all written in the pious hope that following them would keep everyone as safe and happy as possible.
................................................................

And I believe that wise people, and especially opinion-leaders, have a duty to support the law audibly when it's relevant - and a duty to call for it to be changed, whenever circumstances change and it becomes less desireable than some alternative. Eg. I believe the whole world deserves a Green pope. Now, before it's too late for South America.
...............................................................

This topic is about disloyalty to a pre-existing contract. In old testament terms, "Thou shalt keep thy naughty bits (including thy dirty mind) focussed on thy spouse alone."

In New Testament terms, "If you'd like your spouse to cheat on you, let her know, and if she's cool with that, have a look around for yourself in the meantime. Otherwise don't."

Don't know exactly what all the other major religions have to say. And don't know which temporal governments round the world have made adultery a crime punishable by death by stoning (preferably by men who are free of sin, because they only fancy young boys - watch "The Kite Runner" - it will change your life.)

I'm a Consequentialist. If you are a wise person and not a fool, and you want to do something where no-one will get hurt, go do it.

But if it's cheating, don't presume to decide for your spouse that it won't hurt her - especially if she doesn't find out.

Ask her for her actual opinion, not just what would salve your conscience. Bring it up as just one topic included in a calm mutual detailed review together of your whole relationship. A board-meeting of the directors of your relationship, to review its recent performance, and plan its next moves.

Which is something that every relationship deserves, every couple of months in the first year, and at least annually after that. To keep it on the rails, so it keeps serving you both well enough eg. to minimise the attraction of the idea of straying.

Or don't get hitched, because you're too selfish and duty-phobic.

Must go chase the $$. Seeyez.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 19, 2008 12:25 PM

Iaminperth: Is your post at 10:25 am directed at me? If so, you do not know anything about my academic qualifications or me, so could you please explain your comments?

I see that you are are an admin/secretary with a Diploma..If that is what you say you are, I believe you. So it begs the question..why would you query my qualifications? Seems strange to me.

Could you also explain what you mean by "learning psychology by default"? You seem very angry at the fact that I am studying to be a clinical psychologist..why is this?

Maybe you have some personal issues of your own that you need to address. My comments were in answer to some points that Amberlight raised, not you, so your response seems inappropriate.

Posted by: femalepersuasion at May 19, 2008 12:08 PM

Thanks OG, I have a real lemon tree in my real garden and real bees but they don't have any real honey, also have the real panadols, so will pick up some real good honey when I am out at the real shops today, might pick up a bottle of real good rum also, only Bundie of course as came from real Queensland. Thanks a lot guys, and yes Virgil we will catch up in Perth and have a real cup of coffee, it'll be a laugh a real one at that!!!..

Posted by: iaminperth at May 19, 2008 11:53 AM

Perth

I believe you, and whenever I return to WA I will contact you.

Posted by: virgil at May 19, 2008 11:26 AM

Perth,
when out on your walk get some lemons and good honey (not heat treated) then tonight mix a desert spoon of honey with the juice of a lemon 2 panadols and boiling water, drink as hot as, as much bedding as you can stand and sweat it out, in the morning it won't be cured but it will be broken, The Grannies cure.
Of course all the ingredients have to be real if you are real, don't know how it goes for an imaginary being lol
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 19, 2008 11:13 AM

Now the real me has a real cold, so I am going to stay in my real bed for a little while with my real cat and have a real cup of coffee then think about wandering around my real garden. Later I will take my real dog to the real beach at Cottesloe for a little real walk, instead of a big real walk and then come home, oops real home, and take a couple of real panadol and probably crash back into my real bed and I will go now because I know I am being a real bore and I have a real sneeze coming on.....lol

Posted by: iaminperth at May 19, 2008 10:30 AM

Wow, What an ego. Learning psychology by default...major interest is writing but takes all afternoon to type a page. Shame, some people try to create a personna of who they wish they were, not who they really are.

Posted by: iaminperth at May 19, 2008 10:25 AM

Amberlight, your comments @ 1407 hrs on May 18 suggest to me that if you needed a cerebral tumour removed, you would prefer to be operated on by a surgeon who has had the same surgery himself. It is his/her study,expertise and authority that are crucial and this goes for any profession. For instance I delivered many babies before I ever gave birth to my own children, and I can now say my obstetric information and knowledge & care of a woman during pregnancy and childbirth is no different , because it is based on scientific fact and the latest medical research.

When you say that you have a fair idea of how you would react to a cheating partner..the role of the psychologist is to help you discover why you react in that way..and to question whether you have developed your *self* enough to be able to create a rewarding relationship.

While you might not be aware of it at any conscious level, your emotional self is greatly influenced by your family of origin,as well as by generations of your family that have gone before you.

You appear to be getting the skill of being able to empathise confused with professional expertise and qualifications.

Posted by: femalepersuasion at May 19, 2008 9:31 AM

Kaz..what a hoot!!! Lynath, she's as real as they get and that's for sure and certain.. "G"

Posted by: amdoingit at May 19, 2008 12:08 AM

Amberlite and Lynathdreary.
Further to the discussion on 'cheating' and my interest in where a sense of morality might come from.
Moral philosophers are the professionals when it comes to thinking about right and wrong. They agree that 'moral precepts, while not necessarily constructed by reason, should be defensible by reason'.
Broadly they divide into 2 groups,
'Consequentialists' who pragmatically hold that the morality of an action should be judged by it's consequences, and 'Deontologists' (from the Greek for 'that which is binding') or Moral Absolutists who literally believe in the science of duty with no reference to the consequences.
Normally Moral Absolutism is defensible only on religious grounds, usually by reference to a holy book. Interestingly you both are prepared to defend your position on the unequivocal wrong of cheating soley on a moral precept.
If we apply the moral philosopher's test that 'your positions should be defensible by reason', what happens? You both say that there is no justification for infidelity in a relationship. Period.
Various contributors, myself included, have suggested and demonstrated real world situations where the consequences of infidelity have been positive and where the consequences of monogamy have been negative. I am not going to cite the examples bloggers have offered. These positives give the lie to your Absolutist position being defendable by reason. It is not, there are too many examples of such rigid adherence to a moral rule being unreasonable and damaging. Your position therefore substantially fails the test. An absolute position is not a moral one.
Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 19, 2008 12:01 AM

Hi all. Just back from tennis, which was excellent. Made up for not being cooked a dinner first. Can't win 'em all. Well, not immediately.

Virgil at 8.58pm: Mate, you're an accountant. I'll bet you don't miss a trick if money tries to sneak in or out of your clients' accounts when you're not looking. And your main hobby is following football. Another numbers thing.

On the other hand, the Captain and I share a very different hobby - studying people. In some considerable depth, yet.

The study of psychology is one of my main interests. When my Ex was doing her honours degree with a psych. major stream, she told me progressively anything she'd learnt that I didn't know already, and got me to read and critique all her assignments.

Since then, two friends have in turn involved me in critiquing their psych. assignments. So I've picked up a fair bit of knowledge for a layman.

Writing is also a major hobby for me. Something I've always found easy. And do a lot of. Including here. But it was Joan (my Ex.) who introduced me to the detailed study of writing styles.

While we were engaged for a year and a day, she was teaching up the bush, and doing English at Uni by correspondence. She showed me one assignment - "Rewrite the following long paragraph in the exact styles of each of the following 6 famous authors."

Forty years later I was tutoring Creative Writing for the University of the Third Age, and gave my class a similar exercise, to get them looking past the information included in each piece they read, to focus on how the author had chosen to word the piece, to get across the emotional content as well as facts.

Virgil: horses for courses. If Perth's posts caused you to suspect her authenticity, Mr S would be ashamed of himself. On the other hand, that I didn't suspect her for months is something he can be very proud of. Bleep good work, sir.

Virgil, I've just thanked Perth sincerely for a lot of helpful info on percheron horses. Suggest you go along with her too. Was it in Peter Pan where all the kiddies had to declare they believed in fairies, or poor Peter would die on stage in front of them? Help us keep Perth alive, Virgil, but delay visiting the West again, in case you're tempted to want to meet her in person.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 18, 2008 11:47 PM

Oh well... The mainstream speaks up on this comment line ;-) While I have to admit two things - the admin had started this very cleverly and sure enough lots of people poured their hearts out with examples of what their "exs" did to them. True - there are many insecure and deceiving people out there. But is there really noone able to distinguish between the emotional attachment and purely physical relationship? Does not anyone believe in "no strings attached" - well, here's another good theme to start ;-)

Posted by: just4funover40 at May 18, 2008 11:24 PM

Virg.
Why not let Perth make up her mind as to whether I am a TW clone, better still you are or have been in contact with him off site ask him, he will not lie to you. Then again I might be manipulating Aunty K by thought transferrence, just to nark Marcus, so if she starts with the scientobabble it could be him doing it. No B not tonight, I have signed the pledge till the next time I cook Italian,
Marcus I know you don't believe but I got G to scratch her ear in an interesting way, explain how I did that!
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 18, 2008 11:17 PM

NGG you too are value adding to what I have said. Can you tell me where I have stated I am a counsellor? Stating factual evidence based information about betrayal and infideltiy on a blog about infidelity is not moralising. Having an opinion is valid. "Judgemental" is a silly convenient word used by people who can't argue a valid point so choose to label instead in order to lessen the opinion they don't like.

Not hanging on to anger and disappointment is not the same as telling the cheaters what they did is quite okay and justified. That is exactly what they want to be told in order to relieve them of the guilt they feel. so that they can face the world.
Doesn't work like that.

Now Bob, you have told us how deliriously happy the pair of cheaters are but what about those they left in their wake? Are they happy too?
No matter what you say Bob those who have been betrayed are scarred for life. That does not mean they are permanently wallowing in grief but a part of their psyche is damaged.
If your friend was willing to cheat then he must wear the consequences of little respect for his lack of integrity whether from people who know him or strangers who don't.
He has a relationship built on very wobbly foundations of dishonesty and deception, and the ability to inflict pain. Neither can ever truly trust the other. Not much of a relationship really. They rarely survive long but occasionally they can if there is something which holds them together for some reason. Not the kind I would be looking for. It doesn't take much to knock it down. They are damaged permanently too.

There is no sense in your comment that cheaters might not cheat again so therefore
it is logical that they were not to blame.
Over and over I have said there is always a reason for cheating, but never a valid justification...no matter what they tell you.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 18, 2008 11:15 PM

Ha Jewels, l was being a bit lighthearted maybe too much so........ things at times get a bit paranoid here.

Maybe l should change my exit from ......K ,which it has been since day 1 to ooooaaahhhh......... what you think ??.......K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 18, 2008 11:12 PM

Does that mean my puppy is not a real puppy? Oh dear, now that is something to really worry about....I think not! lol

Posted by: iaminperth at May 18, 2008 11:06 PM

hey kaz. what is going on this evening on the blogs and how did you cop it!!! ....lucky that a lot of us (including me on a Melbourne trip, my next one is Darwin in July...any Darwin bloggers out there??) have met you and know that you are real and not some kind of sock puppet.....but you gotta laugh or is that screech oooooooaaahhhhh...have a lovely evening....jewels

Posted by: junebaby57 at May 18, 2008 10:56 PM

Hi Virgil, What a laugh...How strange...I cannot imagine why he would think that. I do believe he is very obsessive and controlling. Would be much better in my opinion if he controlled himself and took stock of his own life rather than try to control others. Sure, we can catch up if you come back to Perth, Cott is still good for coffee, although very cold at the moment.

Posted by: iaminperth at May 18, 2008 10:45 PM

malsie at May 18, 2008 9:05 AM

Marcus - "precisely" - "because you cannot understand how something works, it doesn't stop it working."

Malsie, with evolution or a silicon chip there is obviously something to understand so it is worth investigating.
With what you are talking about, like fairies and hobgoblins, or that "the moon is a giant orange suspended just above the tree line", there is no evidence of anything to even look at much less understand.
Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 18, 2008 10:42 PM

oohh Lynath l really am an Aunty....... to 6 neices and nephews.
That was just a pisstake on the rumour mill is all......

There is no way l could have that many "people" in my head, l get confoosed and befuddled being me..........K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 18, 2008 10:36 PM

kaz you know you have no brothers or sisters...the "aunty" was a great disguise

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 18, 2008 10:24 PM

Amberlight thanks for the support. Seems like I have caused a bit of a fuss while not even here!

ISTJ is refusing to acknowledge what I have actually said and continues to twist my posts and meanings in order to make herself feel better.Either that or she has a serious learning difficulty with comprehension skills. All that tuff she has made up about support groups for instance in order to belittle me. ISTJ states that I dare to reply when someone disagrees with me, but surely that is the purpose a debate or discussion?
IstJ is obviously upset because in two of her posts she has virtually said that she can't understand why it is not all about her. Post one "I have felt hearbreak not related to betrayal"and now post two "but it might have been"
If you look back throughout the blogs I have never been snappy to anyone unless I have need to defend myself. You will see that if I have something to say to someone I say it to them rather than use the istj manipulative method of making seemingly innocent remarks with a not so hidden meaning and target. ...

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 18, 2008 10:22 PM

Okay guys...the game is up.....

They really are all me......
I have been lurking around for a while, popping up now and then as auntykaz, doing my Jeannie Little impression, you know the where she screeches....oohlalala, or is that oooooaaaaaah...
Whilst neuroticising about the fish l am catching for dinner, now a red herring, or what, l say to myself....... what is my favorite fillum......... l think it may just be Alien resurrection......1,2,3 and 4 and very possibly any further morphs into predator 1,2,3 and 4 also......

What l am justsaying, is that what a bloody game this all is....for some.......no wonder we are all suspicious of others.....posted by the on and only auntykaz, in her original and only guise.....................K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 18, 2008 9:54 PM

Whatever is he talking about? I've never tried to bluff anyone, just make a few comments now and then. I don't think he is a well man

Posted by: iaminperth at May 18, 2008 1:01 PM

Perth

What TW is saying is that you are not a real person.

Personally, I find that hard to believe. I feel your posts are consistent with your profile and with themselves.

If I return to Perth either to live, or for a holiday, I would very much enjoy having a coffee with you.

TW has made the point that, due to the amount of time I have been on here, I should be of the same opinion as he is.

That is not the case, as I find you to be one of the real characters here.

In fact I think you feel TW and OG are the same person.

I know the Adelaide bloggers are real, as I have met them in person, and spoken to some of the Melbourne bloggers on the phone.

Posted by: virgil at May 18, 2008 8:58 PM

Good one Bill..."G"

Posted by: amdoingit at May 18, 2008 7:03 PM

oohlla at 5.07pm: I see you're cooking red herring for dinner tonight. What's your recipe?

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 18, 2008 5:54 PM

Timewarp. My understanding garnered from Captain Thunderbox is that he has not been indulging in 'serious literary criticism' with you 'over months' as he has been seriously incommoded, having been unwittingly caught up in a lieu of ill design that has resulted in essential services having to cut him loose after enduring 72 hours of frozen agony in this bitterly cold weather, but did opine that he considered one loose canon roaming freely through the blogs a psychological casualty of his own mental undoing, whether he being lurking, sliming, just saying, random naming, morphing into a tailfinn, whatever takes his perverted fantasies.

Posted by: oohlala1 at May 18, 2008 5:07 PM

amber those two posts you chose to highlight were from men and were their perceptions of what Lynath was posting endlessly about her situation, and those in her group therapy sessions...that can't be working because they are still going after ten years...time for a new therapist methinks.
I said I had not been cheated on that I know of...doesn't mean it hasn't happened...I haven't had an easy life but I am not hanging it all out on the blogs to garner sympathy...Lynath was snappy and quite rude to me but I see you excuse that. Lynath has been posting for some time...as have I ...and this is her modus operandi...just because you are flavour of the month does not mean it will always be so...you may also disagree with her one day or choose to look at a topic objectively...so be ready for the sting!

Posted by: istj54 at May 18, 2008 4:14 PM

Amberlight,

Everyone deals with being cheated upon in different ways....that is their right and privilege; but moralising to others that dont hold your point of view is wrong and judgemental. Howver, this from someone who purports to be some kind of counsellor; a vocation I would believe is to help people cope with their issues, not to hang onto their anger and disappointsments, is unbelievable. She is allowing her personal experiences and belief systems to cloud her thinking ....just look at her comment about my mate and his wife and tell me that is not bitterness....and malicious towards them; and not clouded by her own preconceived ideas about ALL people who have cheated in the past.

The truth is that most people find redemption in some form, and people that have cheated are not guaranteed to continue that behaviour throughout their lives....therefore, logically speaking, the problem isn't wholly the cheater's; they have cheated for a reason (whether they know why or even understand it at the time)...and perhaps we, as the partners cheated upon, were a part of the problem (though maybe we dont realise it or understand it at the time either).

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 18, 2008 3:19 PM

lynath, you ae so damaged and bitter it is sad. Your belief that you can pass judgement upon others based upon your distorted perceptions is a further confirmation of the deep bitterness you carry within yourself. Your hurt overlays everything you post. Your striking out at those with an opinion other than yours lessons you and the message you ae attempting to convey.
And yeah, get over yourself you sanctimoneous pain in the ass.......ha ha

Troy
Posted by: troyohboy at May 8, 2008 10:11 PM

Lynathsishairy May 8, 2008 6:16 PM
Good to see you can still skip down the concrete path, behind the picket fence, with another load of too-long-left in the basket sour washing and hang it on the Hill's hoist for us to see the mouldy bits..
Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 9, 2008 1:37 AM

Sorry ISTJ, but these are just 2 comments that people have made about Lynath.
Can't see too much "twisting of blogger's posts" there, can you?

Maybe Lynath may have taken your comments out of context, but after such comments as those above, is it any wonder that Lynath may have been feeling a little "prickly"?

ISTJ, you attempt to sound so reasonable and all-seeing (as from both sides of the equation) in your comments about infidelity, but did I read in one of your posts that you have never been cheated on yourself?
You may feel a little diferently if it ever happens, as guilty pleasure posted on May 7,
"The one thing it isn't is definitive. What would crush one person with infidelity, would be understood and condoned by others. Don't pre-judge anyone. And don't ever think it won't happen to you,or that you would respond honourably when it does. Until that tipping point arrives, you just don't know."

Same as FP who says they are approaching the issue from a ?"psychological perspective" as in a psychology student?
No matter how much training you have, you still can't truly see where another person is coming from until you have been there yourself.
That doesn't mean that professionals don't have their place, of course they do.
But I have heard professionals such as doctors, saying how they never understood a patient's perspective until they had faced a major crisis, either as parent of a child who was a patient, or as a seriously ill patient themselves!

As I have said previously, I'm not sure if my ex ever cheated, but I have a good idea on how I may have reacted if I had ever found out!
I would never have cheated on him, not because I am any "saint" but because I believe firmly that such behaviour is unfair and cruel. And totally disrespectful to the other person.
No matter how bad things have become, you must have loved and honoured that person in the early days of your relationship. The very least you owe them at the end is honesty, concern and respect.

Posted by: amberlight58 at May 18, 2008 2:07 PM

Whatever is he talking about? I've never tried to bluff anyone, just make a few comments now and then. I don't think he is a well man

Posted by: iaminperth at May 18, 2008 1:01 PM

Marcus - 2 things:

Evolution: I wasn't thinking about the brain, from the amygdala onwards, which seems to be your only real focus above the waist. (Which I can say, because I'm a tit man ...)

I was thinking about gills and then the reptilian tail. Please tell us more than I know about those particular way-stations of the human embroyo.

Puppets: Yes mate, and I deserved it. I had just pushed too many of his buttons too hard. You could have called my posts a serious personal attack, and in a fair society you don't get away with that. And I didn't. So that was fair.

Since then, I've stopped meddling in other people's personal affairs. Not an old dog yet, so still evolving.

The secret info I mentioned is simply the result of the Captain and me taking the trouble over the months to do some serious literary criticism, and then compare notes.

And I have to admit that Perth was the one who had me completely bluffed for months. Really professional work, Mr S, and I congratulate you again.

Must get back to my 3D life - Long lazy Dabblers picnic lunch in the park under the Story Bridge, probably all walk to Southbank for afternoon coffee then back, late-afternoon snooze for an hour or so in my car on a west-facing hill till the sun's warmth leaves us, early dinner at a friend's and then night tennis, now that yesterday's warmth and heavy rainstorm has been replaced by a very cold south-westerly wind from Melbourne or thereabouts. Might play in trakkies tonight, instead of shorts. The others do in winter. Seeyez.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 18, 2008 11:24 AM

No one has said that Lynath is bitter and twisted, or wallowing in pain and misery except for you and maybe Lynath where she has twisted bloggers posts to suit herself.
No one has belittled her terrible experience either...the problem lies in the way Lynath speaks to other posters if they do not agree with her stand on a topic, or her dogmatic views...JMO...for what it is worth.

Posted by: istj54 at May 18, 2008 9:46 AM

Marcus - "precisely" - "because you cannot understand how something works, it doesn't stop it working."

And my consciousness isn't at all "depressed", thanks, or any other part of me :)

Posted by: malsie at May 18, 2008 9:05 AM

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 16, 2008 11:02 PM

Hi Bob,
I guess it doesn't matter sometimes how well we think we know someone, we never really do.
I can understand just a little, how you must have felt.
I can remember being rocked to the core when my marriage was falling apart as the one major thing I had always believed about my ex (and the major reason I had stayed with him years longer than I really should have) was actually not true at all.
I was completely shattered.
I just couldn't believe how blind I had been and how much I had so wanted to really believe this about him, that I had actually made it my reality.

I am so glad for you that you were able to see and even understand your ex-wife's reasons for her infidelity.
It must have taken you a lot of soul-searching, many people can never get to that place.
It sounds like from what you have written, that your ex-wife may have also taken some responsibility for her infidelity and not simply blamed you for all her actions.
Which would have made it a lot easier for you to forgive her.

However, I entirely disagree that just because Lynath has written at length about the pain she felt at her husband's infidelity, that this means she must be somehow "bitter and twisted" and "wallowing" in her pain and misery.
I don't see Lynath's reflection on her past experience as anything other than an expression of the pain that infidelity causes to the people who still love and care for the person who cheats on them.
People who cheat usually avoid thinking about their current partner's hurt and pain.
Lynath has only pointed out the reality for her of that experience.
Not made any easier by her partner's refusal to take any responsibility for his complete lack of honesty, his unwillingness to make her aware of and work on any issues he may have had about the relationship, and his denial of the pain his betrayal caused both to Lynath and their children.

It sounds to me as if Lynath has moved on, very well.
She is a wiser person, but if Lynath was already a kind, caring person (which is how I read her from reading these blogs), I would ask all of you who think you have some kind of moral authority on this issue, please tell me how can such an experience make you a "better" person, than you were before?

If Lynath's experience makes some people feel upset, uncomfortable or awkward, then perhaps they need to reflect on WHY Lynath's experience makes them feel/react in this way?

BTW, I also agree with Grego's (and Kaz's) comments about not letting those who have hurt you defeat you.
I have met so many people who have been seriously emotionally damaged by trying all their lives, to get unconditional love and approval from demanding, critical parents as well.
I have read that this can be the source of many eating disorders and depression.

I wonder if this is far more prevalent, longer lasting and damaging, than hanging onto a previous partner's infidelity?
Maybe even the cause?

ISTJ, re your comment about the reason's people marry and who they marry. I think you are probably very accurate, especially for first marriages!

Posted by: amberlight58 at May 17, 2008 11:02 PM

Padre.
I notice in Timewarps response to your "put up or shut up" request re iaminperth he is unable to do either. With usual Kim Beazely-would-blush verbosity and obfuscatorial slipperiness declined any sort of answer and instead claimed secret knowledge.

I will not accuse him of becoming the blog mystic; more likely just very circumspect because he has been bitten on the arse by a transvestite 'sock puppet' more than once (and very recently).
Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 17, 2008 9:44 PM

Hello Everyone....Very very new Around here me.....so ill just get on with it shall i....?
My oppinion...

When do you cross the line from being faithful to being a cheater?
its when the cheater decides to be dishonest not only with their partner..but with themselves about their feelings not matter what the feelings may be

Is flirting considerate cheating?
once again if your dishonest about your feelings or your partners feelings with the way you flirt ...it is yes...

Is going out for drinks with someone you just met cheating?
I see no problem with it, if i was in a realtionship i would phone my significant other and ask them to join us

What is cheating?

Dishonesty with your partner and Yourself..!
Simple but once again my thoughts

I have no affiliation or objection to any religion but will use a quote here
Do Unto Others ..as You Would have Done unto You..!

Posted by: intimatemind at May 17, 2008 8:23 PM

Warped.

No foetal resorbtion of a reptilian brain Warped. You and I and everyone have a genuine one. It is the oldest of our 3 and controls most basic functions; heart rate breathing, balance body temperature and many others and is pretty much the same as the 250 million year old one current reptiles sport.

Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 17, 2008 7:15 PM

istj54

Quite simple really.

I know that 28.3% of Australians are Catholic........so that would make you the major religion ?

Would you not automatically assume that i am Lutheran considering 82.5% of suomalais are Evangelical Lutherans ?

Posted by: amodnar at May 17, 2008 6:34 PM

May 17, 2008 9:40 AM Malsie wrote;

Marcus @ 10.40 am "Because you cannot understand how something works- think about a silicon chip in your PC perhaps- doesn't stop it working."

Precisely, Marcus - because we may not be able to fully explain and comprehend the workings of a "higher consciousness" or "God", it doesn't stop it working or us having the ability to feel that flow throughout our whole lives. I have no need whatsoever to understand that connection through "logical" means. To me it just "is", and I am happy with that. You can call it blind faith, if you will, but I would disagree. It is more a sense of knowing from deep within.

Precisely what Malsie?

My comment to Virgil was in regard to evolution and DNA. He may not understand but it is deeply, fundamentally understood by others. The same for the silicon chip. It was designed and made by scientists and engineers so naturally it is also deeply understood.

What you are expressing has nothing to do with 'raised consciousness'. That implies a high level of knowledge and sophisticated understanding. Your comments indicate the exact opposite; a deep reduction to a depressed consciousness with, as you say, workings you cannot explain or comprehend (let alone understand in the sense most people have of the word).

That is primitive, tribal level superstition. Perhaps there are alternative reasons for why you feel and know rather than being inhabited and directed by the supernatural? You substitute 'feeling that flow throughout our whole lives' and 'knowing from deep within' for rationality, logic and scientific evidence or even honest philosophical enquiry.

Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 17, 2008 5:53 PM

Virgil at 9.29am: I hate to see you putting it so bluntly. That's like saying "OK. Disprove Santa Claus. Here and now. With proof. Or else leave the kiddies forever with lifelong substantial illusions that Marcus would consider to be totally unscientific and thus, completely repehensible."

1) I want you to know that the PURPOSE of sock puppets (which I call glove puppets, in certain cases like this, where the puppeteer is a particularly skilful scriptwriter) is to achieve simultaneously:

* the complete trust of the audience (or at least the less-observant 99% of it) in the suggestion that the puppet is real, and that the words and actions of the puppet are NOT those of the hidden puppeteer.

* the ability to take on a persona which is completely different from the puppeteer's, and thus,

* to have several puppets in action at once, usually communicating with the audience - but also with one another, eg. agreeing with what the other puppet just said, or even having a go at the other one, like the traditional Punch and Judy, which always involved spousal abuse with a club, visible on screen.

2) One puppeteer is so good at it that I've named him Mr Svengali, which is quite a compliment. Mr S for short.

3) Pastor, the Captain and I both know who Mr S. is, and which city he lives in. And the names of most of his puppets, past and present.

But there is no way I am going to tell his name and city to anyone. Ever. That would be so churlish. Spoilsport territory. And RSVP is based on not telling people your surname.

4) Puppeteers are entertainers. They entertain the populace, and a third group called theatre critics also watch the show, and rate it, just like how many stars for each movie.

I'd been away from the blogs for a few days, and when I returned I commented on the highlights in what I'd just read - including some bouquets and brickbats for Mr S's cast of puppets and their performances.

5) Pastor, that's all you get, because that's all you deserve. You spend a lot of time on the blogs.

If you were a more attentive reader, you'd also be asking yourself as you read:

* "What would a person be feeling, to make them say that?"*

* "What kind of person would say that in this context?"

* "Is this person speaking authentically at this moment?"

and similar questions.

And you'd pick the phoneys quicker - the real people as well as the puppets. On blogs and in real life.

That's why I organise my RSVP prospecting the way I do. I want to talk with each person face to face for at least 2 hours at a first date. To listen to them and find out about them.

And if someone doesn't want to commit themselves to that much time, in case it might lead to a happy future for them, they're not motivated enough to be worth my time at all. I'm looking for my match.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 17, 2008 4:52 PM

Ha istj, maybe it is the weather....or the lateness of the hour....maybe l just felt like saying it....maybe it's intuition....
Freezin here in Melbourne after a loverly day yesterday....got the fire happening and the coffee machine on the go.....may slip something nice into it to warm the cockles of my heart.
I'm sure l have one here somewhere.
Can see where you are coming from with the comment about marrying who you are with at the time.........

Stoic, right back at ya. A man of many talents :-).......................K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 17, 2008 11:34 AM

I think Grego makes a good point in his post of 1.37pm today...all of it. No matter how much something hurts you...you cant let it defeat you and make you bitter and twisted...the only person that this harms is yourself.

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 16, 2008 11:02 PM

Absolutely......others may harm you but in the end the healing comes from within..................K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 17, 2008 9:58 AM

Marcus @ 10.40 am "Because you cannot understand how something works- think about a silicon chip in your PC perhaps- doesn't stop it working."

Precisely, Marcus - because we may not be able to fully explain and comprehend the workings of a "higher consciousness" or "God", it doesn't stop it working or us having the ability to feel that flow throughout our whole lives. I have no need whatsoever to understand that connection through "logical" means. To me it just "is", and I am happy with that. You can call it blind faith, if you will, but I would disagree. It is more a sense of knowing from deep within.

ynotalice, I'm sure your situation caused you some hurt and frustration, and it's great you want to continue your friendship - not always easy after things have come to a head like that. I think Lynath covered exactly what I would think re where your friend may be at with things. She may want to get back into the swing of things regards "dating", but sometimes the body and soul takes its own sweet time, and it just can't be rushed.

amodnar - yes, people often do believe the most "incredible" of things, especially if they are trusting and honest, judge others by their own values and wouldn't dream for a minute that anyone could turn out to be as duplicitous as they sometimes do. This probably comes under the category of the new blog topic re "open hearts". The most open of hearts unfortunately leave themselves vulnerable to being trampled and stomped on by others who could be described as "heartless".

Posted by: malsie at May 17, 2008 9:40 AM

TW & Captain Thunderbox

Both of you constantly make references to Perth being a sock puppet.

I find this hard to believe, she seems to be a very level headed person, with very traditional values.

I have no idea how one is to spot a sock puppet, but I feel it is time to state the reasons for this belief, so all can be able to spot "sock puppets", or cease calling her one.

To put it more bluntly, put up, or shut up!

Posted by: virgil at May 17, 2008 9:29 AM

.....does that mean that maybe the original marriage might have been the original error of judgement for him, and all of us?

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 14, 2008 8:29 PM

I think that this is definitely worthy of discussion.
People marry for a myriad of reasons that they often do not even admit to themselves. A friend of mine once said to me that people marry when they think it is time they were married and often married the person they are with at that time...anyone agree with this...I do.
I enjoy your posts too, Bob...sometimes seem to be on the same wavelength/page.

Posted by: istj54 at May 17, 2008 7:39 AM

Amondar...how is it that a little girl...albeit a very pretty little girl...from Finland knows my religion...was it a lucky guess or some uncanny intuition...very Twighlight zone...or Outer Limits...do not adjust your tv set you are now entering...The Outer Limits...Kaz was a bit unkind to you too...but she gets like that...I'm enjoying your posts and discussions...but that's because my iq is so much higher than George's...and a bit of trivia so early in the morning...the whole entertainment scene seems to be connected to being a Christian these days.
Lovely rainy weather here, in you know where...AmandaR

Posted by: istj54 at May 17, 2008 6:25 AM

Grego7 @ 1.37pm.. Agree with you wholeheartedly.. If a person is still in love with someone else then they shouldn't be looking for another. Not fair on either party. Mine's been over for a long while and I'm fine but, someone who's not had a lot of time yet to sort themselves out may well think that they're fine, however, suddenly they're with someone new and moving along nicely, placed in a compromising situation and wella.. old emotions appear from nowhere.. Has happened to a very dear friend of mine only recently. She thought she was well and truly fine and was totally taken back by her feelings. Has her beat but there you go.. Guess we're all different...
Cheers..."G"

Posted by: amdoingit at May 16, 2008 11:38 PM

Hey Marcus,

But we know who created god....man!!

bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 16, 2008 11:31 PM

You are too kind, Ninaschen. You are too kind and it is nice to see your name appear here again.

amodnar - for my next trick, I will be making simultaneous comments in all available forums, in Old English, Futhorc, Sumerian, and hieroglyphs, while downing a beer standing on my head singing I'm Henry VIII I am I am, under the profile names Moe, Curly, Larry, and Shemp.

Kaz - what did I do to deserve to be spoken to like that? ;)

Posted by: stoic at May 16, 2008 11:23 PM

Amberlight,

In answer to your question....I was shocked to my core; there was no-one I trusted more in my life than my ex. The thing is though, in the cold light of reason, I couldn't think of one damn thing other than that matter that would make me question the type of person she is otherwise...I had no reason to hate her or wish her ill.

I think Grego makes a good point in his post of 1.37pm today...all of it. No matter how much something hurts you...you cant let it defeat you and make you bitter and twisted...the only person that this harms is yourself.

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 16, 2008 11:02 PM

Randoma, do you actually understand when someone posts something what they are saying ??

Clearly not....

Justsaying that maybe, as your "profile" suggests you are from Finland that you may misinterpret what is being said.....Or maybe not.......

And finally.....what a load of crap............K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 16, 2008 10:52 PM

Hi all. Been too busy even to read the blogs for a few days. Yesterday the worst - had to work from 7am to 5am to make a deadline. And then today from 8.30am till sundown. Then a real relief - dinner and chat at a Club with a mate. Dropped home, another hour putting Work to bed till tomorrow, and on to this blog. I'm very lucky to be still so indestructable at my age.

And what a wonderful blog! Such good stuff from all the usual suspects.

TLD, istj, FP and amber all at their clinical best. Marcus and randomA providing the left-field contrast, and virgil, stoic and some good newbies keeping up the lay side.

A few specific comments:

ynotalice and grego7: Good stuff. Please keep writing here. Kianee: nice to see you back briefly.
..............................................................

istj at 8.04pm: I always believed that fantasising being wicked/sinful was to be avoided, because it can make you yourself unilaterally unhappy, and thus spoil things for you, even before you begin to act out your antisocial fantasies, which is what starts to spoil things for those around you.
............................................................

On the science vs religion debate - I believe that it's human nature to try to reduce fear of the unknown, by considering the big things that science can't yet explain, making some hypothesis (guess) about their nature or cause which seems plausible and unfrightening,

and then BELIEVING that that guess is correct, till science advances and replaces that belief with some concrete knowledge. Simple as that, I believe.

And I am swayed by the evolutionists' argument that the human foetus develops and then reabsorbs features that are characteristic of fish and then lizards in the early months -- working via the previous recipes, on the way to the current one.
................................................................

randomA: Loved your new profile, and specially the mention of your being a fragile violet. But try to finnish getting rid of the intermittant dialect, because they make anyone seem too phonetically fickle, unless you're always extra careful, and type as slow as I do.
...............................................................

I like a good Punch and Judy show, and wished that the recent squaring off among the glove puppets had come to some real verbal fisticuffs. A bit of physical abuse at least. Just for authenticity's sake. It's not real punch and Judy, till Punch gets his caveman club out and gives Judy a clobbering. Maybe that's why Perth shot through.

Last comment before I do another hour's Work before I fade out - while I've been away, several people have been regularly posting essays twice as long as my longest. One after another.

Sorry I'd been having such an ongoing inhibiting effect in the past.

Seeyez.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 16, 2008 10:48 PM

I feel we have to use common sense, whilst in some places it is said, thinking is as bad as doing, surely we must come to that with our life experience.

As I said before, If I was to think a harmful thought about someone, yet dismiss it after filtering it through my knowledge of right and wrong, it has strengthened my conscience.

The world would be in total chaos, if it was as bad to think something wrong, as to do it.

Posted by: virgil at May 16, 2008 9:04 PM

stoic at May 16, 2008 6:54 PM

This is just for you Stoic - :). You may recall my resistance to using smiley faces - but I am compromising my principles just for you - you deserve it! You are an intelligent, principled and astute young man. Good to see you back.

Posted by: ninaschen at May 16, 2008 8:54 PM

Who shall i start with first.

hmmm.

Istj54
You will have to talk to your Parish Priest about that.

Dear Auntykaz, maybe christians are mentally ill, I mean , George Bush believes in Christ and his IQ is 125.not bad eh !

There is no logic in Christianity or evolution, you clearly have not told anybody yet how you make something out of nothing ?

Stoic.what a clever boy....Now I want to see you do two posts at the same time, in different forums, standing on your head,drinking communion wine and eating wafers................talk about the Triune God !!

People will believe anything and it is astounding how people will believe a lie rather than the truth.the more incredible it sounds and the more convincing you are in delivery the more followers and believers you will have

Posted by: amodnar at May 16, 2008 8:47 PM

Good question istj54 - any theologians want to weigh in?

I suppose if you are Christian or Jewish then thinking about adultery is as bad as doing :)

Posted by: stoic at May 16, 2008 8:33 PM

...he may come down from Mt Stupid with a new set of commandments...thou shalt not take the name of....................insert any random name here.......in vain.
I think perhaps bloggers could add the other nine...which just brings me to "thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife." Does this mean that just thinking about it is, indeed, as bad as the actual act of adultery?...or is there a taxonomy for the commandments?

Posted by: istj54 at May 16, 2008 8:04 PM

Another comment into the ether...

Sorry Marcus but the only one apparently going is you, and I have had nothing to do with it - you have gotten yourself flapping about. Either that, or you are just taking the piss.

According to your great detective work, while I was arguing my position of not accepting cheating, I created amodnar's persona and profile and writing style (in spite of my consistent railing against the use of sock puppets) and had their first post slag off about religion and marriage (completely unrelated to any previous postings), then proceeded to disprove amodnar's position (while calling myself "my dear boy" and accusing myself of not reading) about religion creating marriage, then deciding to insult other (with whom I have had no quarrel) people's photos and English use (as someone for whom English is a second language) for no readily apparent reason.

And the piece de resistance of your detective work is that two different people posted comments a minute apart, thereby proving they are the same person. Or something...

Oh look! On May 10th, Amberlight and Virgil posted one minute apart 6:41 PM and 6:42 PM respectively - and both were replying to Lynath! They must be the same person too!

You know amodnar and I are the same person in the very same way Adam Sandler’s Waterboy knows that "alligators are ornery because they got all them teeth and no toothbrush".

Climb down off your mountain of stupid on this and stick to posting about something you actually do know - evolution and the genetic building blocks of life for example, and what role the discovery of say, silicon based life on other planets will play in the evolution v creation debate going on here on earth between Science and Religion.

Posted by: stoic at May 16, 2008 6:54 PM

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 16, 2008 3:46 PM

Thanks Lynath, Kaz and others - I had already come to a conclusion something along the lines of your post - thought she was ready but when faced with a real possibility realised she wasn't. Even though I wondered if I was being judgemental in my earlier post it's not really the correct word for me to have used, as I don't have any real issue with the other person involved. I would prefer to know her situation now than have her fool herself, take a step that she isn't ready for, and then have a real problem.

By the way the friendship will continue as we really enjoy each others company. Also I've gotten to a point where I've realised that if you continue walking away from others who could be a good friend because things don't go exactly as you might wish you end up with not a lot in life.

Posted by: ynotalice at May 16, 2008 5:26 PM

OG - of course the Vatican has apparently come out just in the last couple of days and said that extra terrestrial life does not contradict faith in God and if it exists, would also be part of God's plan

Wonder what your friend and his priest would say now if the situation happened again? :)

Posted by: stoic at May 16, 2008 4:56 PM

Amberlight you are a such a gentle kind person, Thankyou.

Ynotalice, it is hard to make a judgement on what happened based on a limited picture. There are lots of possibilities.

The one that I think might be likely is that she has reached the stage where she would like a new relationship and has come onto RSVP to test the waters and was only half believing she will find someone.
If this is her first relationship post end of marriage then it is a big step. It is a bit weird but taking that first step after years of faithfulness is hard for the mind to come to terms with. There are also great issues about attractiveness and body image and taking on a new sexual partner in general. Therefore, she might not be quite ready to accept the challenge and take the plunge into what is really a final step to ending her past relationship. She could be divorced but still feel emotional and almost guilty about being with another man.
If you are still friends you could talk about it.
She might just need reassurance and need to give herself permission.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 16, 2008 3:46 PM

Posted by: ynotalice at May 15, 2008 9:57 PM

I dont think that this is cheating but it is not honest. The only way RSVP can work is if people are honest with themselves first. If a person is not over someone they should not go looking for someone else.

There is a lot of luck required in matters of the heart. Dust yourself off and get back into it.

Keep reading those profiles even of people you dont think initially might fit the bill.

Good luck

Posted by: grego7 at May 16, 2008 1:37 PM

"You're right Kaz, I don't have much sympathy for people who wallow in self pity. I will get off this blog and won't comment any more. I find it hard to have sympathy for people who won't help themselves."
Posted by: iaminperth at May 15, 2008 9:05 PM

iaminperth - if everyone stopped commenting there would be no more blogs. I think you are over-reacting to people's comments. Some people have been hurt and are choosing to express that on the blogs ('cause that's what they're for) but that doesn't mean they go around all day wallowing in self-pity. Like Kaz said, have a bit of empathy, that's all most people are hoping for then they will sort out their own lives in their own way.

Posted by: woodnwine at May 16, 2008 1:31 PM

G'day Amber
@12.12 pm, I followed and agreed with you up to the last sentences, as you said every body reacts differently to any given situation. So why cannot some just put it behind them and get into another relationship immediately, without causing harm to the new partner.

Seeing that religon and God have become accepted. Back in about 67/68 I and my offsider were travelling towards Coonamble on a back road when we were joined in the right hand side paddocks by a flying craft roughly the size of a sports oval, it was completly silent, the gleam off it negated the vans lights and it contoured the terrain. My offsider was a deeply religous man, his reaction was to cover his face with his hands, when I wanted to stop and have a look at it (it slowed as I started to stop the van) he went into hysterics so I sped up again. I went to the next town and reported it to the police, my offsider denied seeing it to which the policeman said that was strange as he had been inudated with calls from the local farmers and other travelers, every observation was similar and all reported that when it left it just streaked up and to the right in a curve and was gone in less than 2 seconds. He never ever admitted seeing the UFO, his priest also said that there was no such thing in the universe and anyone who saw such things was imagining it.
So much for blind faith and a closed mind.
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 16, 2008 1:00 PM

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 15, 2008 11:13 PM

Hi Bob,
I am certainly not trying to question your reaction to your ex-wife's affair, but I just wonder if the reason you recovered so well and so quickly, was because you knew your marriage was faltering badly and knew your wife was already in some pain and distress? Which you were either not willing or able to try to work on?
Therefore when she formed a new relationship, you were not really surprised and you could obviously see her reasons for dealing with her loneliness and pain in this way.

In Lynath/Chris's case it seemed that things appeared to be going well, from what she describes her and her husband had a loving relationship (still held hands in public!) they did things together and as a family and it sounds like things were great in the bedroom department.
So to find out her husband is cheating on her must have destoyed her world.
She must have felt that everything she believed about their relationship was all a big lie.
The shock, pain and grief would have been unbelievable!

So for Lynath, the experience would have been so much more earth shattering than yours and have taken much longer to get over.
It would take a very long time to feel whole again after such a betrayal and to be able to trust another person in that way, again.

There is no way anyone can compare their experience of a major life event with someone else's.
An experience that deeply affects one person, can have little or no affect on another person.

I think this is most obvious when we see the effects of war. Two soldiers go into the same terrible bloody battle, one is emotionally scarred for life from the experience, the other appears unaffected.
Maybe the person who is traumatised, saw his best mate's head blown off, maybe the other didn't actually see this happen.
One soldier ends up with PTSD, the other doesn't.
Which one ends up with PTSD? Maybe not the person we expected.

It is just the way we are made up as human beings, no one way of dealing with extreme emotional pain and hurt is wrong. Or right.
Some people recover quickly, some people take years, or may never fully recover.

However, I firmly believe that people need to take as long as they need and not rush back into a new relationship too soon.
It is only fair to yourself and the other person to be sure this is what you really want and not just use the other person has a security blanket while you recover.

Once you have healed, you may find that person is the last person, you want to spend the rest of your life with!

Posted by: amberlight58 at May 16, 2008 12:14 PM

Hmmm, Marcus, are you then saying that people with religious beliefs are mentally ill, as a general comment?.....

I agree that science is a far more definable answer to how we are here, absolutely.

The logic behind evolution is fairly unshakeable in my mind.

We are but a pinprick in time, no matter how important we see our lives.

I was watching a show on Foxtel the other night, about a family in the U.S. (where else) who had 16 children, aged 18 and under. When the 16th was born, and you actually saw it being born, the mother said "praise the lord". The thought that came to mind was "don't think the lord had much to do with that".......................K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 16, 2008 12:12 PM

Kaz.
As I say when you have one person with an unproveable belief in a controlling diety from who says he receives messages and 'inspiration', and talks back to it, he is regarded as mentally ill. When lots of people do it it is religion.
Quiet private beliefs may be one thing, no matter how illogical they really are in the face of unassailable scientific explanation and the far greater beauty and satisfaction available from a proper understanding.

Kaz, religious faith easily can be an evil because it accepts no argument and requires no justification. Allowing or teaching faith, especially to children, may prime them for horrible deeds.
Far better to teach people to question and think through their beliefs and to provide rational, evidence based alternative explanations than to allow that faith is superior. Religious zealots have to start somewhere.
Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 16, 2008 11:39 AM

Sorry Stoic.
You didn't carry it off. You had a few of em flapping around though.

Your rebuttal post to me:
Posted by: stoic at May 15, 2008 11:16 PM.

then the other rebuttal;
Posted by: amodnar at May 15, 2008 11:17 PM
These are one minute apart. Huh?
Haha Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 16, 2008 11:11 AM

Marcus, hasn't that always been the debate between creationists and evolutionists ??...

I am firmly in the latter camp.

Are you combining creationism with religion there?? Just a question is all.....
By that l mean, there is no valid, proof that there is a "god". And yet millions of people believe in some sort of higher being, someone to worship, and therefore creationism as an extension of that.

That people have a belief in something doesn't make it wrong does it??
Why should they have to prove anything ?
Belief and Faith, no matter what it is in, gives some great comfort.

And l am not talking the religious zealots here, just your average believer..........K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 16, 2008 11:02 AM

virgil at May 16, 2008 1:05 AM
Pastor. Fly check please.

We have evolved from single celled organisms. We have them as our earliest ancestors. We are just a different branch on an evolutionary tree that includes their modern versions (which are as 'evolved' as we are). There is absolutely no doubt at all that this is what has happened.
All known life forms can be traced to a single common ancestor which lived more than 3 billion years ago. All life forms share the same 4 letter genetic code.
Even the Catholic Church fully accepts this.

On who created God.
You claim the existence of an invisible, supernatural, creating omnipotent deity. It is incumbent on YOU to offer the evidence for such an unlikely claim.
You need your consciousness raised by some appreciation of biology and Darwinism; things that seem totally improbable will become understandable and the false alternatives revealed. Because you cannot understand how something works- think about a silicon chip in your PC perhaps- doesn't stop it working.
Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 16, 2008 10:40 AM

Not too judgemental Ynotalice. What you are feeling is your own hurt and no one can understand that because it is yours.

At the very least she is telling you now before things got too farther along.

Possibly chalk that one up to experience, and learn whatever lesson is there for you....................K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 16, 2008 10:29 AM

Yes Stoic her comment was very funny. But would be nice if she could also perhaps accept a compliment when it's given.

I have long been a fan of Kenneth Blanchard and Spencer Johnson's work and try to follow their principles in what I do and say.

I would always hope my musings do at least on the whole show a positive bent.

Full up with a cold here, so doesn't look good for what was to be a second date. Hopefully absence makes the heart grow fonder. Yes? Lol.

Have a great day all!

Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at May 16, 2008 9:31 AM

Malsie & Lynath

Yes I do mean dishonest after a fashion. To me cheating isn't limited to the physical act that seems to have dominated this blog, but could also include situations like this. The reason we met was that she was on RSVP looking for someone. After getting to know each other over a period of time, for her to then come up with that type of repsonse comes across as dishonest, both to me and to herself. If that is her situation then I would prefer to know now, I just wish she had been more honest with herself before getting me involved. I don't think it is just a device to brush me off as she has made it abundantly clear that she would like to maintain and develop the friendship. Obviously the level of deception and harm is way down the scale, but I was interested if others might see it my way or if I was feeling a little too judgemental.

Posted by: ynotalice at May 16, 2008 7:37 AM

Unfortunately Jewels, the path seems to be littered with toads, but then you know that !!

Posted by: jenjen57 at May 16, 2008 7:27 AM

Posted by: junebaby57 at May 15, 2008 7:00 PM

At the very least it is dishonest Jewels. Another frog/toad along the way ?

Posted by: jenjen57 at May 16, 2008 7:25 AM

...agreed Notgodsgift...I was talking about Lynarh who seems to be irrepairably(sp?) damaged by her experience...maybe her writing here is helping her to recover in some way.
I am all for grieving a relationship, learning from it and moving forward. It is not usually one sided. There is fault on both sides. Sometimes you need to dig deep to work out what it is. That's the hard part but usually great for personal growth.

Posted by: istj54 at May 16, 2008 7:16 AM

Bob

I tend to approach this question from a scientific point of view, in that I ask myself, do I think it is possible for a single celled amoeba to become a person, without intelligent design.

No, I dont.

So, it leaves me with the belief that there is intelligence in our design, our genetic makeup, what makes us human.

Who created God? Science accepts there are things in the universe that we will most likely never understand.

Posted by: virgil at May 16, 2008 1:05 AM

Goodness Marcus, l find myself agreeing with you, errr , yes you..........K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 16, 2008 12:31 AM

Hi Virgil,

You make a good point re "dog" time and "god" time...interesting dont you think that the spelling of one is the reverse of the other?

However, there is one question that creationists can never answer because it flies in the face of their beliefs "who created god"?

Creationism was bourne out of ancient mans inability to to understand nature and science...he needed a reason for everything...so he created gods. Science accepts that there are things in this universe that we will most likely never understand...but we will strive for truth, not accept fantasy.

bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 15, 2008 11:25 PM

laughs and talks or is it talks and laughs or maybe can talk and laugh or people laugh when i talk or maybe you are just misinformed and living in a bus in the desert.
remember, try not to cheat on yourself out there and he who laughs last laughs loudest...or something like that, but I am sure with your knowledge of all things Ungodly you will come up with another revelation.

Posted by: amodnar at May 15, 2008 11:17 PM

Nope - nothing to do with me except his/her initial replies to my posting.

There is a reason I said "good show" and not "good argument/point/line of reasoning"

I love it that amodnar pushes ahead, has the sookies whining about how offended they are (and I so enjoy hearing people whine about how offended they are when comments aren't even directed at them), takes fire about pictures and profiles and spelling and returns in kind (I found the bierfest photo comment particularly amusing in what it was supposed to imply - nothing against you, Jen, and I don't agree with it), oblivious to almost anything else, refusing to be cowed or intimidated. And I really did have to laugh when I was referred to as "my dear boy". Highly amusing.

Rare for a n00b to the forums to show such fighting spirit, and all without the need for a sock puppet.

Posted by: stoic at May 15, 2008 11:16 PM

Hi ISTJ,

Always nice to read your thoughts; someone who has an open mind on most subjects.

You said a few posts back something to the effect that "cheating damages us for life" (forgive me if I have misquoted or misunderstood).

I beg to differ on this point...which may be the crux of some of the argument. I am not damaged because my ex cheated...in fact I have moved on from there and acknowledged that it was not entirely her fault. Life is for living and hanging onto angst only makes us miserable. People are human and make mistakes in their lives....but there is such a thing as redemption.

As much as I admire people with high moral principles, I admire people like Grego who admit their errors of judgement (he admitting his error of judgement being he married someone he shouldn't have)...and find redemption.

Why hang on to anger, frustration and bitterness; is being justified worth the justification when it ruins your life...I think you have already answered this question in the negative!

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 15, 2008 11:13 PM

Junebaby , very sorry that has happened to you. Sorry you ae hurting.

Ynotalice, I am sure you are hurting too but it could be a case of cold feet. Still might work out given time and patience.(as long as the relationship with the ex is over and the breakup not too recent)

Iaminperth when a relationship breaks down there is a grieving process to go through which follows the same pattern as any other grief. One of the biggest aids to recovery is the ability to be able to talk about the experience and retell the story over and over, until the mind is able to make some sense of the trauma and come to terms with it. The process from initial shock to acceptance stage takes up to two years for major traumas. For this reason it is not a good idea to try to jump back into a new realtionship with someone recently out of a long term relationship.. Some people do get stuck in the depression stage and need help to get through it.

I can only presume iaminperth that you would be the type of person who would expect a grieving person to "get over it" and "pull themselves together" in 6 weeks. Our society does not handle grief very well at all, we are embarrassed by it, and men on the receiving end of trauma are the worst off of all as they are expected to be strong and show no emotion.
As I have droned about many times , just because I write about the affects doesn't mean I am still 'wallowing in them"

ISTJ the idea put forward by Marcus about being prepared for infideltiy or expecting it to happen or plotting how you would hide it prior to the start of a relationship is a very depressing lot of ideas devoid of hope and presumes the person you intend to engage with is dishonest. I would not like to have that presumed of me. If there is no trust and joy there is no reason.

Firelightlady I agree with your version of karma!

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 15, 2008 10:56 PM

ynotalice, do you mean "cheating" as in "dishonest", in the question you asked? If you've been seeing someone for some while platonically and they want to move it forward and you're still in love with your ex, it seems perfectly fair and reasonable to me to tell them so. If you mean it's just an excuse to help assuage their feelings, and not actually true, I wouldn't recommend it. I think it would be fairer to just tell your platonic friend that you're not interested in them in that way (nicely and carefully, but honestly, nevertheless).

Posted by: malsie at May 15, 2008 10:29 PM

Posted by: stoic at May 15, 2008 7:44 PM
Despite our differences I have to give kudos to you, amodnar.

You came out firing, have taken some flak and thrown it right back at them, and even got the more precious personalities complaining about being offended while carrying on defending yourself without breaking stride, refusing to be intimidated.

Good show :)

Amondar is a 'Good show'? You really thought that Stoic? Touche mate? You didn't have a hand in any of it did you?

Bloggers have have rarely seen so much poorly informed, religiously self referential, contradictory nonsense about any topic than his, err I mean her, contributions and some of the replies on marriage and morality.
Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 15, 2008 10:28 PM

Hi, here's a question. Is it cheating (of a sort) to be active on a site like this, date someone platonically over a period of months and then when asked 'can we move forward together' to come up with the answer 'sorry can't think of this as I still love my ex!'

Posted by: ynotalice at May 15, 2008 9:57 PM

And whilst we are on the subject of God let us not forget that humans were created on the sixth day so it was a rush job. Not everything was done right. Jamming a big brain into a animal body, on reflection, may not have been the best design.

Posted by: grego7 at May 15, 2008 5:20 PM

hmmm as if anything God has created would be a rush job.

Rush jobs are in current vocabulary to describe something that is most likely not the best a person could achieve, a very modern cop out.

The writers of the Bible did not have current carbon dating procedures and therfore decided on a day as a measure of time.

As one year of our time is approximately 7 years of dog time, one day of God time, might in fact be millions or even billions of years of our time.

Posted by: virgil at May 15, 2008 9:44 PM

It is not about sympathy Perth. I doubt that sympathy is what pepole would be after.

Maybe empathy would be more like it.
Listening or reading others experiences can give those who are still hurting some sort of comfort.
Those of us who are strong don't need it.
Others may.....................K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 15, 2008 9:37 PM

You're right Kaz, I don't have much sympathy for people who wallow in self pity. I will get off this blog and won't comment any more. I find it hard to have sympathy for people who won't help themselves.

Posted by: iaminperth at May 15, 2008 9:05 PM

No need to be rude Kaz, just saying it's going around and around at the moment, each trying to outdo each other with their perceived misery. Move on...that's all you can do, choices are taken away, don't destroy yourself...that's all I am saying. I can still think whilst riding a horse anyway, it's the best time, peace and quiet and content with the world.

Posted by: iaminperth at May 15, 2008 9:00 PM

laminperth, get off your horse for goodness sake. This topic is called "cheating" and people have been commenting on it.
What's wrong with that ??
Some find it hard to move on.
Me, l am on the other side of the planet l have moved on so much.

Some of the posts here, from femalepersuasion, Lynath, Istj, Stoic etc etc have been quite good to read.
Well l think so anyway...............K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 15, 2008 8:43 PM

Unfortunately some people don't move on and wear their 'cheated on' sign like a badge. It becomes the whole focus of their being and constantly introduced into conversations. It is an excuse for behaving badly, it is also an excuse to control another person and it's an excuse not to get off your butt and become interesting. So what, you were cheated on, it was terrible, despicable, can't imagine anything worse, well actually I can, cancer, death of a child, etc., but put it away, don't let it control the rest of your life, don't manipulate other people with it, it's a powerful tool. Don't let the cheater control the rest of your life. What's done is done, move on, get interesting, meet new people who will be friends, don't look at everyone as a potential partner for life. Smile!!

Posted by: iaminperth at May 15, 2008 8:22 PM

Wake up, smell the cappuccino, reflect honestly on events, accept some responsibility, deal, move on and don't look back - NEXT!

Posted by: firelightlady at May 15, 2008 7:50 PM

Best advice I have seen about this topic...gonna walk and don't look back!

Posted by: istj54 at May 15, 2008 8:16 PM

Reading and thinking are one thing, but going around and around in circles like an old clothes dryer is another. Recognise the situation, accept the situation, put it away, learn from it and move on for gods sake. Mulling over the same thing over and over destroys a person and why do you let a cheater have so much power over you. Just look at the face of a brooding sulking vengeful person, I'm not shallow at all, but I am realistic and don't intend to punish myself for the rest of my life because someone else stuffed up. Grow up, the soap operas are a load of crap, get a life.

Posted by: iaminperth at May 15, 2008 8:15 PM

Ya think, stoic ???? ;-)........K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 15, 2008 8:15 PM

amondar - So is fantasy cheating too?

I always did say Paul Young (my favourite singer) was the third person in our marriage. Maybe that's where we went wrong! Oh my god, I seem to be getting so much clarity about it all now. lol.

Heaven forbid, I must stop those impure thoughts about Mel Gibson or George Clooney. Or is it ok at the moment because I am not in a commited relationship.

I must be so evil! Lol!

Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at May 15, 2008 7:57 PM

I have to say that I have deliberately stayed off this blog since my first post ages ago. For what it's worth serial cheaters from my observation are those who 'live by the sword and ultimately die by the sword'.

I have seen wives discarded, mistresses married and then superseded; husbands supporting ex-wives and younger men (who within 9 months were cheating with other women) and I have also seen husbands who cheated then get cheated upon by the next model; and spouses of both gender wonder why on earth this happened - again!!

The last to know is often the last to know because communication went by the board a while before. It doesn't matter however thin one slices something, there are always two sides. Ignorance is not bliss it is usually what I call the Egyptian holiday -living in denial.

Wake up, smell the cappuccino, reflect honestly on events, accept some responsibility, deal, move on and don't look back - NEXT!

Posted by: firelightlady at May 15, 2008 7:50 PM

Despite our differences I have to give kudos to you, amodnar.

You came out firing, have taken some flak and thrown it right back at them, and even got the more precious personalities complaining about being offended while carrying on defending yourself without breaking stride, refusing to be intimidated.

Good show :)

Posted by: stoic at May 15, 2008 7:44 PM

I think that cheating is seeing someone, having your profiles hidden, going on many dates, getting intimate, then the one that is a blogger, comes on to blog and finds the others profile active again, and checked today!!!!

That would rate as cheating would't it???? Cause it bloody hurts!!!!!!

Posted by: junebaby57 at May 15, 2008 7:00 PM

Reading all of the Lynathdairy’s posts on cheating I can say with all certainty, and understanding, that cheating does totally damage and destroy a person for the rest of their lives...we all know that but since it is so prevalent perhaps we should take some of L&T's advice and start to think about what we will do to either prevent it or deal with it when to happens to lessen this damage.

Posted by: istj54 at May 15, 2008 6:55 PM

Waterlily58,

Fortunately for me RSVP worked beautifully and I now have a partner that I love dearly and who loves me despite the fact that I was unfaithful in my previous marriage. (and therein lies the point).

I am now on this site just for the blogs. The level of debate, ideas and intelligence shown here is very high. and whilst I dont agree with all the views I find them stimulating and in fact helpful to me.

If you check my profile you will see clearly that I am "off the market"

I have put my profile up because I dont think one should make comments on a blog of such seriousness as this without others being able to see a bit of who one is (sorry English not my strong point)

So far the score in the debate seems to me to be:

1. Cheating is infidelity
2. Causes emotional betrayal
3. For some lifelong damage
4.Some can forgive others cant
5. Human beings are fallible so there will always be cheating - in the end it does not matter much whether it can be justified or not. It happens and we need to deal with it.
6. You are better off forgiving and moving on.
7. Scores apear even on who invented marriage, God, church, ancient Egyptians,others around the middle east or was it europe (cant remember)

And whilst we are on the subject of God let us not forget that humans were created on the sixth day so it was a rush job. Not everything was done right. Jamming a big brain into a animal body, on reflection, may not have been the best design.

Posted by: grego7 at May 15, 2008 5:20 PM

FP, a precise post, and so true, in reference to your first two paragraphs.....K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 15, 2008 3:00 PM

interlocution you so right about happiness. Being unhappy is one of the common justifications for cheating and blaming the partner and yet one of the most basic realisations in any search for meaning is that no one can 'make' you happy. It is a personal choice to be happy or not and no one else is responsible for that choice.

Iaminperth, I may be droning on but I will continue to address issues raised or argue my points. Haven't you got any deep thoughts or opinions or do you prefer not to think but just become belligerent.
Who would have thought you would actually be expected to read and think on a blog?

Marcus, I am mot disappointed in you. You have taken the same old tired route of chauvinists everywhere. When you are not winning or realise your arguements might not hold water you resort to attempts at dismissal of a female with false and malicious references to her sexual abilities and (laughably) her ability to please men.
This is the 21st century Marcus.
I think I have more than demonstrated my ability relationship wise and in addition have a wealth of life experience which you will never have. Therefore your lack of insight and understanding into certain matters is limited to and by the parameters of your own selfish, tiny world.
I do not answer impertinent specific personal questions from you or others here.

Oldergent, your friend has touched on an aspect of betrayal that is hard to deal with.
The destruction of home lifestyle and place in the world. I am not talking about golddigging 25 year olds who marry 90 year old billionaires. Think first wives club. One of the humiliating and infuriating aspects of the end of a long relationship is the loss of something both partners have contributed years of their life too. In the majority of cases the male partner has had the most support and ability to further his career and progress while the female partner may have chosen to remain home with children or work to fit in with them. They expect the effort put towards the husbands career to pay off in the end with rewards for the whole family. When this is snatched away suddenly there is uncertainty and fear of the future and great sorrow at the loss of family security. This is magnified many times if the
affair enabler, who set out to destroy the realtionship, then benefits from the years of effort and perhaps going without etc by the betrayed partner. The type of people who are able to involve themselves in affairs with cheating and dishonesty have no hesitation in gaining as much as they can take from the family left behind.
Recent changes to superannuation and family laws have gone some way to addressing this.
Amodnar thankyou. They do it because they have little understanding of the reality that cheaters leave intheri wake. Some probably are as you say cheaters who don't want to be faced with the truth.

If you want to feel real love in a relationship you need honesty and trust which brings a feeling of security and safety in which you can bond properly. If you don't have those basic building blocks then you don't have anything much at all.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 15, 2008 2:47 PM

What we are really talking about is the act of betrayal, which is the vilation of a presumptive social contract, that produces moral and psychological conflict within a relationship. Often it is the complete severance from a previosly decided upon, or even presumed norm by one party from the other.

We could discuss ad infinitum why individuals choose to betray, the +ve and -ve outcomes of such actions, or why people choose to betray rather than be honest and declare their abdication from the previously held agreement..too complex to list.

Then there are those that seem so afraid of being betrayed, that they need assurance that this will never happen when they are just getting to know someone .

My posts were in no way intended to support the betrayer over the betrayed, or vice versa, but to encourage a broader view, with self reflection and inner growth as a means to navigate these life challenges.

Posted by: femalepersuasion at May 15, 2008 1:52 PM

In answer to previous posts

jeniferrx

No it's not a wedding.............and yours ?

a Beirfest perhaps?

Iam perth.

just in case you do not know........in your headline, if there are not enough words than your profile is hidden automatically
I would have thought for someone who has been on this site for sooooooooo.........looooong you would have known that?

My spelling.........is better than yours and I am not even English.......what is your excuse?

Illiterate ?

lynthdiary.......why are they treating you so badly? you stand up for your morals while others taunt you because of their own ineptitude in life.very sad.....perhaps they have had too much experience with cheating men or maybe they are covering their own cheating nature.

Virgil.thankyou I withdraw my earlier comment.

The reference to thought, word ,and deed, on cheating was the Lutheran Church explanation on the Commandments...under 'what does this mean."

Thou shalt not commit adultery

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbours wife, nor his manservants nor his maidservants nor anything that is thy neighbours

oldergent..........what does gent mean ?

Posted by: amodnar at May 15, 2008 1:51 PM

Strike me lucky Kaz, they don't need encouragement to start, then again not a bad idea, make it just for them then lock the gate and keep them in by themselves. Then take bets on how long it is before they got to war with each other. lol
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 15, 2008 12:59 PM

Gee stoic, l don't know......maybe because l am ungodly ;-)........
Maybe RSVP can have a topic just on religion, then randoma can knock himself out...............K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 15, 2008 11:09 AM

Perth

Many people have bias, even bowling balls have it.

Maybe the bias of a person who has religious beliefs is able to be more clearly seen and identified, because they are expected to follow a certain path.

This debate is interesting, because it is different, it has different participants, stoic and amondnar talking about things way different to the debates between Marcus and others on genitalia, etc.

Posted by: virgil at May 15, 2008 10:53 AM

back on topic cheating is cheating whether it is by thought word or deed.
Posted by: amodnar at May 14, 2008 11:07 PM

People can have many thoughts in quick succession, maybe a cheating situation arises, a person considers the possibility, assesses the situation, arrives at the conclusion, that to follow that course of action would be cheating, and therefore bring pain and suffereing to their partner, so therefore choose to not cheat.

They have, therefore chosen the noble path, considered their existing relationship to be worth more than the possibility of something new.

A thought is not a betrayal, it is only when the thought is acted upon, that it becomes anything more than a thought.

Posted by: virgil at May 15, 2008 10:30 AM

Lynathdreary.
I think that you probably married as a starry eyed virgin, and could not or did not offer your man the stimulation in the bedroom he wanted. Judging by your posts here you were rigid and dogmatic conservative and convinced of your righteousness. Efforts to address the sexual side of things were not to his satisfaction and he went looking.
I think in the same way as you are morally indifferent to the ritual slaughter of the chook or the cow that will provide your next meal he was probably indifferent to you or even negative because he felt let down.
Many people judge a husbands actions in the fullness by how he looks after his kids. That is the real contract; the one with society.
You look like you are prepared to die in the trenches on this one- perhaps like the worthy from 80k's out of Adelaide who still has not had a date.
My advice is terribly patronising and time honored- go over the top of the trench get out there amongst the enemy and get some relevant sexual and with it relationship perspective.
Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 15, 2008 9:51 AM

Perth,
Agreed, the first post was a doozie and a warning of what was to come. It will be interesting to see her response to my last post to her, though I do agree, cheating is cheating,

Lynath.
I am sorry for your experience, but as one such woman said to me a lot of years after her betrayal, the biggest hurt was the loss of her social status, foregone to the new paramour and eventual younger wife. I sincerely hope this is not the cause of your regret.
OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 15, 2008 12:33 AM

lynath, How do you know all the 'stuff' you speak of. What is your information based on in your excrutiatingly long posts. It is so dogmatic and exacting droning on and on. Is the information based on fact, on your own experiences or a lot of maybes. What makes you such a closet expert on human behaviour and why people behave like they do. It seems to me you write mainly in a soap opera style of sensationalism without ever really getting down to the crux of the matter. People cheat for a huge variety of reasons but mainly Ego. It has nothing to do with emotions or feelings, it is purely Ego.

Posted by: iaminperth at May 14, 2008 11:53 PM

Amod, your last post was truly offensive and just shows the bias by some so called religious people. Typical though I'm afraid

Posted by: iaminperth at May 14, 2008 11:40 PM

Why do people cheat -- I can not say, there is a myriad of reasons I am sure. Though it comes down often to one reason. For men it seems it is to feel like a "stud" ( that is feeling desired) and for women it is because she was not "happy" in the relationship 9 read that as she did not feel desired).

anyway I never seriously date a woman who terminated her last relationship because she wasn�t �happy�. Happiness is an emotional response to external stimuli. To break the vow of �til� death do us part� over an emotional state that may or may not be another person�s fault, is shallow and shows a lack of emotional maturity. It tells me that woman is too self absorbed to be a reliable partner in the future.

Posted by: interlocution at May 14, 2008 11:39 PM

Now what makes you say a thing like that, Kaz? ;)

Posted by: stoic at May 14, 2008 11:32 PM

Femalepersuasion, I think you are attaching way too much meaning into the average affair. They are not about searching for the spiritual soulmate etc etc That is dangerously romanticisng them. Affairs happen when two things occur and they are a catalyst and an opportunity.
The catalyst can be any number of stressors on the relationship, combined with a person who is unable or unwilling to work on the relationship.
If an opportunity arises(and this is because it has manipulated and a choice) then the person becomes involved in an unreality of a thrilling new sexual relationship where everything appears perfect. They may feel alive again or especially they may feel important or desirable, which are feelings they may not have felt for some time in a long term relationship.The adrenaline of the sneaking around adds to the thrill they are experiencing and pushes to cheaters together in an "us and them" situation.
In this fantasyland real life and it's problems and worries don't exist. The partner(s) being betrayed and the life led with them is compared obviously as unfavourable.

The rest of your post talks about what the betrayed person should do "again along the lines of blameing the victim" I note you have not talked at all about what the betrayer should do.
Forgiveness is not the first step to rebuilding a rerlationship. It takes some time to do that.
If the relationship is to be saved the betrayer must follow a set of steps. I do not agree that the betrayed person should have the justification that they may be capable of hurt too put forward as an excuse for their partners lack of integrity and weakness.No one forced them to 'demonstrate their unhappiness by sexual behaviour" How pathetic is that idea? That is like excusing violence by demonstrating the perpertrators unhappiness with a murder.

I agree to some extent that some affairs can be the wake up call for a renewed relationship, but not every relationship. Much depends on the nature of the cheating.
When faced with the dilemma the heart wants to make it all right again, but the head has many doubts and not only trust is lost but also respect. Many, many people struggle with this even when the betrayer is begging to be forgiven,or especially if they have returned reluctantly, the whole balance of the relationship is gone. There are many questions such as " Do they really love me" "Are they here because they want to be or because they feel forced" The betrayer may feel that he has been forced into giving up the affair partner and still believes that the fantasy was reality" People sometimes spend years trying to overcome doubts and problems caused by the betrayal of trust. Because the cheaters have usually lived double lives and done things to mess with the sanity of the betrayed person during the affair and immediately after discovery, it becomes exceedingly difficult to believe anything they say .Rebuilding is often not the most satisfactory outcome and ending the relationship is.. either choice is heartbreaking and painful.

In my world an agreeance to a commitment does not change in time unless discussed with the other party involved, not a thrid person.

You may never choose to be with a person who expects you to keep your word, but I would never choose to be with a person who's attitude to love forgiveness and acceptance was worthless.

enigmaboy1 I agree with your last line about the main source of the hurt.

greg07 I am very interested in your comment " .I at least had the good sense not to stay with the person I had the affair with "
What did you actually think of that person at the time of the affair and afterwards?
Did the attraction disappear immediately the affair was discovered and the exit from the marriage accomplished?

I can never understand how either participant in an affair could ever seriously trust that person in a real realtionship.
Most people who engage as affair partners can never be happy in real relationships as once the intial thrill stage has worn off they need to seek it again along with the attention it brings them and the boost to their flagging self esteem to feel they are so powerful or so special that they have the ability to destroy a relationship.
We have hardly even talked about the enablers. ...yet....

Stoic and amodnar I admire your work and knowledge.

Marcus," If one partner wants a comitted monogamous relationship I assume that means theywill stay physically sexually faithful to their partner. I cannot see how it is necessarily going to be binding on the other party male or female. That person does not have to behave according to a set of principles they may no longer agree with." That is right it is only bound by integrity and loyalty. Even the bank sends out a letter of notice if they want to change the terms of their contract. It is acceptable behaviour to do so. Would it be alright if they upped your interest rate to 20% because they no longer agree to the contract they have with you?
Libido and hormone production may be controlled by the hypothalmus but behaviour including controlling sexual impulses is run by the frontal lobe'

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 14, 2008 11:31 PM

It's very tedious when people start droning on about their imaginery friends in the sky and what they think and there is always someone pushing their view down someones throat....oh yawn, we've heard it all before.

Posted by: iaminperth at May 14, 2008 11:28 PM

amodar @ 11.07 pm.
maybe any religous bigot should spend a long time in the bay, (uniforms, food and re-education supplied free of charge). But I do agree with you "cheating is cheating".
amodanar.
I do not think you will find many Muslims on this site, only the ones monitoring who may want to send you to their equivalent of the bay overseas, which is "tit for tat" as far as religous pay back seems to demand.
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 14, 2008 11:28 PM

Oh dear l fear the ungodly amongst us are in for more lecturing...............K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 14, 2008 11:20 PM

Kaz.
Luv ya Ha ha, or the baker and the butcher?
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 14, 2008 11:13 PM

Not sure if the comment came through so will post again.

It was to you notgodsgift about your theological query.

First you would need to believe that Moses actually spoke to God. Then you would need to believe the same God impregnated that woman without actually touching her with the genetic material to give the child the 23 pairs of chromosomes required.

I don't believe that so the question is moot.

That being said, there is certainly precedent of the gods being players. The Greek gods were especially fond of taking human form and impregnating females :)

Posted by: stoic at May 14, 2008 11:12 PM

older gent, I have not had any threats yet.
Do not get me started about Muslims or any other ...........
back on topic cheating is cheating whether it is by thought word or deed.
I just thought I would clear that up for the UnGodly amongst you.
You only have to tell someone you thought about crashing an airplane and you will end up having a holiday in Guatanamo don't bother packing !

Posted by: amodnar at May 14, 2008 11:07 PM

Kaz,
Sorry to swing (!) that one one you lol. As far as I know (believe me my wife would have shot me at the mere thought of joining them) I do not know the arrangements between them. It just amused so many of us in the know for him to get stroppy enough to take that action and then come a gutsa in the divorce court on a bad settlement. I think it was the control factor as she was coerced into the arrangement in the first place ( to my knowledge).
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 14, 2008 11:07 PM

Interesting sexist comparison
Charles and Camilla.
Dianna and Dodi, the Doctor the Major the ?
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 14, 2008 10:55 PM

OG is the last one the candlestickmaker???..............K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 14, 2008 11:02 PM

Interesting sexist comparison
Charles and Camilla.
Dianna and Dodi, the Doctor the Major the ?
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 14, 2008 10:55 PM

amodnar@10.00 pm.
Well what about all the Muslims you have just insulted.
OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 14, 2008 10:50 PM

Bob.@8.46 pm
Your point made. The other thing I have always wondered about, Moses the only person on record to have ever met God face to face and have received a tangible artifact from him, why was not the commandments never collected and saved as historical proof of a God after he so disgustedly cast them aside at the sight of the false idol. That act alone raises so many doubts as to the respect to God at the time.
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 14, 2008 10:13 PM

Oldergent, that is indeed a vexing question you posed of me earlier today....

If the friends of yours had agreed to both "swing" then no l would not consider that cheating. Both having made the decision together as it were. I guess it takes all kinds to make the world go round.

That the man objected to the fellow swinger that his wife was with then raises points of hypocracy does it not ??.......
Unless they had made a decision that if either objected, they would not go through with the swap of the day, for want of a better phrase.
Okay, they are both willing partners in the wife / husband swapping game, so are there limits to what is acceptable there or are the rules made up to suit the couples in question.....??
But again, in answer to your question, the original game of swapping, if all by mutual consent, l would not consider cheating..............K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 14, 2008 10:11 PM

God, royalty don't marry for love nowadays either, do they? Don't they all have a wife and a mistress or two, and everyone turns a blind eye .... Charles and Diana and Camilla....for example....

Posted by: waterbombe at May 14, 2008 10:04 PM

Exactly Not God;s Gift they all took many wifes until one day God
decided "Hey this is not fair , I will put a stop to this "
"It's just not right that the powerful and the almighty get all theee..................hmmmmm..............maybe I am a hypocrite ?"

Posted by: amodnar at May 14, 2008 10:00 PM

You raise a valid point istj54 - nowadays marriage is more for love than anything else but historically this was not the case.

And as you point out, it certainly was not the case for royalty of the middle ages, even as religion was becoming more involved.

Posted by: stoic at May 14, 2008 8:53 PM

Hi All,

Since the debate has moved to "History" and "god"...heres food for thought.

About 2880BC (give or take a few years) Moses comes dwn from Mt Sinai with the 10 Commandments. These are supposedly written by gods hand and one or two of those go something like "thou shalt not commit adultery or covet thy neighbours wife".

We now move forward 2880 years....god himself impregnates the wife of a married man in order to have his son born to mankind.

Is this a case of "do as I say, not as I do" or is god just a filthy, lowlife, scumsucking player....or the ultimate rapist?

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 14, 2008 8:46 PM

Posted by: istj54 at May 14, 2008 8:08 PM
I met a man at work a hundred years ago and we fell madly, insanely in love...he was married with three children...we only ever did lunch/drinks, and with others, but boy were we truly, madly, deeply...was that cheating?
No J.L. that wasn't cheating ..the way you dealt with those feelings was admirable and moral

Posted by: abckenny at May 14, 2008 8:40 PM

Hi Stoic & Amodnar,

Just a thought on your discussions....ancient cultures did have marriage; but their relationships were not monogomous......nor was that of Abraham...the founding father of the Judaism, Christianity and Islam; but no-one calls him a cheating dog!!!

I know that you are all going to pounce on poor old Grego, but he makes a point about his own indiscretions and his later life. Like my friend, he has found someone to whom he is actually comfortable to pledge his fidelity.....does that mean that maybe the original marriage might have been the original error of judgement for him, and all of us?

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 14, 2008 8:29 PM

...continuing the history lesson...have just finished watching- The Other Boleyn Girl...talk about cheating and I guess that case began the Church of England...who would have thought that Poida would one day play the King of England too?

Posted by: istj54 at May 14, 2008 8:12 PM

...I think I am about ready for sleep now after reading all the history lessons...that basically point out that marriage is for convenience...so may be easier to understand high figures for cheating...if people go into it for wealth, family etc...not never ending love...just more thoughts.
amodnar...I said that I had never been cheated on...as far as I know...and do you ver?
In the old days you used to be able to date a few guys/girls at a time. Is that cheating, or is it really all about sex?
I met a man at work a hundred years ago and we fell madly, insanely in love...he was married with three children...we only ever did lunch/drinks, and with others, but boy were we truly, madly, deeply...was that cheating?
It was certainly emotional and intellectual and was never taken to the next level...never kissed...but the feelings were deep and lasting.

Posted by: istj54 at May 14, 2008 8:08 PM

greg07re your post at 6.40pm. Forgive me if I sound a bit confused. Promises of unsolicitored fidelity, partner, living together, planning to marry - and you are on rsvp?

Posted by: waterlily58 at May 14, 2008 8:03 PM

Lynath,

There you go again....making assertions about something of which you know absolutely nothing regarding my mate. For your information his wife is hardly a shrinking violet, nor is this about anything but two people finding their perfect partner....

No-one is deriding you for having high moral standards...you, Stoic and anyone else are to be admired for that.....the issue is that you moralise and judge....obviously not much of a counsellor if you cant see how harmful that can be.

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 14, 2008 8:03 PM

Touche stoic !

Posted by: amodnar at May 14, 2008 7:58 PM

Once again you miss the point amodnar.

(And clearly did not read what I wrote since, for example in Egypt, both parties would get together and come to an agreement, and either party - that means the man or the woman - could file for divorce as it were. So where your caveman bit comes into it I don't know.)

Yes the Greeks, and Egyptians, and Romans, and caveman had their gods that they prayed to, made offerings too, and worshipped but the fact remains that those gods had little to do with marriage.

The gods were not asked for permission to marry and nor was any oath sworn to the gods. I am sure the gods were appealed to for good luck in the marriage (and later for a first born male heir) much like they were appealed to for a good harvest, a safe voyage etc. People married to secure property and alliances and later on, as society got more advances, to provide legitimate heirs which would ensure the continuation of accumulated wealth.

Marriage as we understand it today has not really changed. Just because some 500 years ago the Church became more involved with it and essentially said "You can only get married in front of God and your primary concern is having children" is irrelevant and no basis for the claim the Church invented marriage as we know it.

Posted by: stoic at May 14, 2008 7:26 PM

Lynath, not all terms of marriage have a condition of fidelity.In the case of my ex and I we wrote our own wdding creremony and fidelity was specifically omitted.

I have to admit I did have an affair which precipitated the marriage break up.Fidelity turned out to be critical to my ex. In reality we should never have got married. If we had both been honest at the outset she would have demanded fidelity as it was critical to her and I would have had to make a decision on whether I could have been faithful to her.

I think I would have decided I could not have been faithful and we would then not have had a train wreck 11 years and 3 kids later.

Honesty in a relationship was raised at the start of this topic.

That was 17 years ago.I at least had the good sense not to stay with the person I had the affair with and after a number of relationships finally decided to stop dating anyone for about 10 years.

Then 18 months ago via this exemplary site RSVP I met someone who had been the victim of a particularly nasty cheating husband, coincindentally also about 17 years ago. Fortunately, she has been able to put aside the past hurt and trust again and we have built a truly wonderful relationship.

The key has been total honesty..

We now live together and hopefully with improved finances we can get married soon.

I found myself in an position of actually making an unslollicited promise of fidelity. I think this was more for me to act as a safety device to ensure that the relationship would be strong. I have made very few promises in my life but the ones I have made I have kept.

The 3 points that have come out of my experiences are:
1. For any relationship to be successful there must be total honesty from the start.Dont assume anything be honest with yourself about what is critical to you.
2. If you have been a victim of infidelity you must forgive ( not forget ) so that you can trust again.
3. For those of us who are of a certain age it is highly likely that we have either been a cheater or been cheated on. The scars are there and have to be dealt with. Revealing those scars is necessary to form a new relationship.

Posted by: grego7 at May 14, 2008 6:40 PM

Well, FP, if someone rejects me because I say "You can't cheat on me", I guess I'd just have to let them go....

But I'd feel like I had successfully dodged a bullet.

Posted by: waterbombe at May 14, 2008 6:10 PM

Actually Marcus, what really happened with that Blue-Headed Wrasse story is that the male disappeared because that 'outwardly unremarkable nonedescript female' fish ATE him....she didn't need to be the smartest fishy in the school, all she needed to be was smarter than him. :-)

Posted by: waterbombe at May 14, 2008 6:04 PM

lynathfairy May 13, 2008 12:04 AM..You wrote...
Marcus I notice you haven't answered my questions, but attempted to deflect by name calling again."
...now about your gender needs theory form the Marcus School of Thought..Marcusianism What about the needs of the partner who does want a committed monogamous relationship? Are you saying that one person's needs(the MALE) are important and the other person's not?
A. If one partner wants a comitted monogamous relationship I assume that means theywill stay physically sexually faithful to their partner. I cannot see how it is necessarily going to be binding on the other party male or female. That person does not have to behave according to a set of principles they may no longer agree with.
I suppose though there is the assumption of not being revealed that predicates behaviour or if not that, simple, indifference [[
Regarding your huge genital/sperm production idea. There are plenty of men in the community who are infertile or have negligible sperm production and they have affairs...how does your evolutionary method of cheating justification fit in here? Wouldn't nature be making sure they weren't out wasting time spreading evolutionary nothing?
A. Some questions are not worth answering are they? Sex urges are controlled by the hypothalamus and the release of testosterone. The genitals merely do the brains bidding and cannot know if they are firing blanks [[

Which reminds me of something funny I heard today. Taken from a real patients file the following words
"On examination of the genitals it was noted that the male was circus sized"
Was that your file Marcus?
A. Chris. Serious question. Have you been with another man since your husband left?
Or with one before him? [[
Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 14, 2008 5:57 PM

amondmar

Recently I was in favour of known bloggers hiding their profiles for certain reasons.

I dont know you, yet what you say sounds familiar. Did you have another name before, or are you a new blogger?

Dear Virgil,

so you judge people on the way they right....fool you !

No wonder so many cannot find a mate or be cheated on when so many make judgements based on nothing but a few lines of type.

My profliw was not shown because I had not filled in my description with enough type.

You may look now if you wish, but it is not compulsory

Now I will judge you .
I never forgive..............God can do that for me

Posted by: amodnar at May 14, 2008 11:51 AM

where do you get judgement from what I have said amondnar?

You are quite welcome to judge me if that is your desire, amonnar, but what I said was not judgemental, just sounded like what I have heard from another blogger, some time ago.

Posted by: virgil at May 14, 2008 5:36 PM

Oh Miss LailaJ , you are a beautiful creature, you look not a day older than 25.
Now How could one ever cheat on you or even think about.........you must mix with the wrong kind.

Posted by: amodnar at May 14, 2008 4:27 PM

Stoic, the point was in case you missed it was that marriage in the form we know it was invented by the church and goes back to the Old testament...back to Adam and Eve.
The church has embraced it and turned it into a Religious event xelebrated by the masses.
There is no way that marriage took place with vows etc. before man could actually speak and then write ?

Think about it for a minutes my dear boy,
did, as Cave men grunt at each other ?
No it was all about possession and violence.
Man would take a woman by force , rape her and posses her.
OK that still goes on today in some cultures but it can hardly be regarded as marriage . Regardless of what you say, marriage is an invention of the Church whether that be the Church of God ar any Church by definition whether you call it by another name.The ancient Egyptians prayed to their own Gods as did the Greeks , marriage in their Cultures were formed as a part of those concocted beliefs as was punishment and violence.

It is still religion no matter which way you look at it.

Posted by: amodnar at May 14, 2008 4:23 PM

Stoic@3.24 Thanks for the teach.
OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 14, 2008 4:23 PM

Oops. Reading back I see amodnar used a similar quote. Just for disclosure purposes, it was not her quote I was paraphrasing.

Posted by: stoic at May 14, 2008 4:16 PM

Well this has been a very interesting and informative blog for me. May I inject another way of dealing with cheating. My first wife was of a religous persuasion and a virgin at Marriage. During the first 13 years that she was well she did have men hit on her, those I found later she could handle, she did, those more persistant she would come to me and tell me about them. Then I sorted them out, in any way I could, and that included the threat to sort it out with him in front of his wife, (they were inevairably married). This did not cost me friends because in my book friends wives were taboo. They wanted to break the rules they were not friends. But the conclusion in our circle was that it was a bad move to try it on with her or me (on the two occasions it happened to me I told her and she sorted it) much the same as I did.
OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 14, 2008 4:09 PM

FP - you are welcome to not have anything to do people who have minimum standards of behaviour with regards to how people relate to them and treat them.

I, however, will not have anything to do with anyone who thinks that a betrayal of such magnitude is no big deal and is so insignificant a thing that a mere apology and "I'm so sorry" suddenly makes them worthy of forgiveness and a free pass.

I demand better from myself and so demand exactly that from everyone else. No more no less. To paraphrase a quote, Forgiveness is God's domain for such a betrayal - not mine.

You can keep your psycho babble about growth by being a doormat (which I am sure does wonders for self-esteem).

Posted by: stoic at May 14, 2008 3:43 PM

amodnar - thanks for the reply but absolutely nothing of what you have written addresses anything I wrote about marriage not being religiously motivated for most of human history.

All you have done is give some of the various church opinions on the matter.

Let me give you some dates to the people you mentioned:

Chaucer (1343-1400 approx)
Luther (1483-1546)
Emanuel Swedenborg (1688-1772)
Joseph Smith (1805-1844)

I think we can all agree marriages were happening long before any of those dates so how you can quote them as any sort of authority on the origin of marriage I am now sure. That and the fact someone claiming to speak to an angel (ie the latter two on the list) is probably not a source we should be going to for any sort of reliable information about the origins of marriage and the like.

You are right about the Bible. It is a collection of manuscripts that a "final" version was agreed upon (which manuscripts would be put in and which would be left out) and a basic "official" creed established for Christianity at the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. A revised version of the creed was adopted in 381 AD by the Greek Orthodox church. And even though these versions were accepted, there were several people who disagreed with what was finally decided.

You have painted yourself into a corner since you cannot say that the Bible is collection of manuscripts which God did not write, pieced together that is neither complete nor profound but then use those same manuscripts to claim God created marriage.

Both the 325 AD and the 381 AD creeds basically laid out the foundation beliefs of Christianity and the nature of the Holy Trinity. No mention is made of marriage. As stated previously it would be another 1000 years before there would be "official" recognition of the sacrament of marriage.

I do not question the role of marriage in the Lutheran church, just as I do not question the role of marriage in the Catholic or any other church. That does not change the fact that marriage neither started nor will it end with religion.

In ancient Egypt, marriage was a social bond - the government and priests took little interest in it - which basically amounted to keeping a record of the marriage contract drawn up by the couple in later dynasties when a drawn up contract became common practise. Couples could marry and divorce and remarry at any time and either party could initiate divorce. We are talking 3-4000 years BC here. From around the 13th Dynasty (around 1790 BC) polygamy was common among the Pharaohs and ruling elite - primarily to ensure the production of a male heir - surely not a sign of a good "religious" institution.

Let's take it to Ancient Mesopotamia in around 2050 BC with the Code of Ur-Nammu and to 1750 BC with the Code of Hammurabi. Have a read of them. They both address marriage and what needs to happen in cases of divorce. It is about property, inheritance, care for any children, and requirements for remarriage. There is nothing about gods, religions, or any religious requirements to either marry or divorce. It is in every way a legal and social contract.

Finally let me bring it to Ancient Greece. Property law pre-dated criminal law and inheritance was of great importance. On her wedding day, a bride's father would make the following statement to the groom:

I pledge you this girl that she may bring children into the world within the bond of wedlock.

It was all about providing a legitimate heir. This took on even greater importance during the Imperial Roman period, with the empire ready to erupt in civil war with any number of generals ready to declare themselves Emperor anytime there was not a clear succession plan.

Yes, since the middle ages marriage took on more religious significance (and there is no doubt much study you can do as to the how's and why's) but prior to that, for most of human history, marriage has had nothing to do with religion. Religious books formed by committee meetings claiming that it did many thousand years after people were getting married, are incorrect.

Posted by: stoic at May 14, 2008 3:24 PM

Lynath, did you have counselling at the time of your marriage breakdown?

Posted by: femalepersuasion at May 14, 2008 3:04 PM

greg07 Female persuasion raised the question of emotional commitment and sexual exclusivity.
Infidelity implies unfaithfulness to the terms of agreement of the contract ie marriage Adultery is the method in the case of romantic matters.
Yes your friends were therefore committing adultery and infidelity regarding their vows of exclusivity with their wives.
The wives would still feel betrayed because they have been betrayed. However, in many people's opinion including mine it is far easier to to accept an act of betrayal which is physical only , It is still painful but not as much as knowing that there has been an emotional involvement with another person and the sharing of intimate details and knowledge of theprimary relationship and partner without consent.
The consequences for the wives are similar including having ot endure the stress worry and embarrassment of undergoing tests for disease and infection because of their husbands indiscretions.
I wonder at this behaviour seen in school and football clubs and groups of men on trips..almost trying to make it okay because "he did it too"

Marcus I notice you haven't answered my questions, but attempted to deflect by name calling again.

Sincrolad of course people who have made a commitment including vows of exclusivity should expect and demand fidleity.

Your other comments about women are offensive.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 14, 2008 2:46 PM

Many affairs are, in reality, a search for a partner with whom a genuine intimacy can be experienced. In a persons search for someone with whom they can experience a spiritual union, the physical union can become a false substitute. Sex, furthermore. is easily confused with love and relating.

Most affairs are never revealed and the relationship dies a natural death. On the other hand, when a partner discovers that there is an affair, the rejection and emotional reaction often cements that temporary involvement into something more permanent.

When an affair is revealed or discovered it often spells the end of a relationship,but it can be the catalyst for a very much improved marriage. Since it usually is a non verbal way of saying 'that something is missing in our relationship', the wise person will seek to forgive and then to proceed to discover ways of rebuilding.

Relationships do not grow in a straight line. There are successes and failures, periods of going ahead and periods of going no place, or even backwards. An affair is a going backwards experience. Dealing with the relationship problems which existed before hand and after the fact are often an opportunity for honest soul searching and increasing self disclosure and intimacy.

To do this require forgiveness. Forgiveness begins with an acknowledgement of your own ability to hurt others. It is not a one way street, and to suggest the 'cheater" is tho only one doing the hurting emotionally by demonstrating it in sexual behaviour, tells me that those with such a narrow view are possibly not capable of mature emotional love. To have an unspoken ultimatum on how another "must" act is more a reflection of the ego and pseudo self, rather than a trusting loving arrangement.

An agreeance to an emotional commitment can & does change over time, and how we choose to end these arrangements is up to each individual-whether you agree to how they choose to do this or not.

When a person has been hurt by another, it is very difficult to be trusting and forgiving, but this is what is crucial to continue to grow and have positive outcomes. Achieving this level of personal development is not easy..it takes emotional maturity and a healthy self esteem.

For those of you that say ...'if you cheat, don't come back and tell me about it, just p**ss off immediately, because I won't want to know you'.
This is how you choose to operate your relationships..your choice....but I would never choose to be with a person with this attitude to love, forgiveness or acceptance.

Posted by: femalepersuasion at May 14, 2008 2:46 PM

Marcus @ 2.04 pm
Yes that made a splash with me mate, now all she needs to do is grow that big Penis and Testes she is always going on about,then she can join us real male types.
Loved it,
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 14, 2008 2:46 PM

A Nature Moment with Marcus.

Fishe Of The Blogge

The Blue headed Wrasse.
These tropical reef fish live as a groups of outwardly unremarkable nonedescript females led by a single bright blue headed male. The females have a heirarchy and the biggest and fiercest not necessarily smartest dominates. If the male disapears or is killed the dominant female is able to change to male and grow the signal blue head in a short time and take over the males main duty.

Remind you of anyone here?

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 14, 2008 2:04 PM

I know that many will not agree with me on this but I have an bit of a different take on this subject- I was with the one women for 12 years. In the end she left- it was a huge tradgety based on both nof us having bad reactions to so many external crises we went thru together. She left while we were still in love because it was dying and she didn't want us to get bitter- for same reason, dissappeared entirely. It was alful at the time but I understand now. Anyway, early in our relationship, while I was away, she slept with a male friend of hers. It took her a while to get the courage to confes- but she did- we were always honest with each other. The guilt nearly destroyed her and (without my even asking) she never saw the guy again even as a friend. In the context that our relationship was so close, the funny thing was that I forgave her immediately and for the rest of our time together trusted her as much as I always had. I never considered this "cheating" because to me "cheating" is a heart betrayal. She never betrayed my heart- was alyways honest, and it was clearly me, not him, she was in love with. I'd never use this attitude as an excuse, but I think that the underlaying hurt cause by "cheating" is really nothing to do with sex- it is the sence of betral of love and the heart.

Posted by: enigmaboy1 at May 14, 2008 1:52 PM

I'm with Perth. Your profile wasn't on-line because there wasn't enough text? Hmmmm. You sure could put the words together on the blogs, yet not enough on your profile to 'sell' yourself?

The picture - very beautiful. Looks like it could be a wedding shot. Your own?

Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at May 14, 2008 1:43 PM

Amod, If you are going to be head officer with a legal firm in Australia, whatever that position entails.....How come you can't type correctly. I would think a job like that would be very precise and yet you leave our capital letters, there is misspelling and the punctuation is really sad. Methinks you may be a product of your own imagination and you certainly don't like Finnish by your photograph. Just a question?

Posted by: iaminperth at May 14, 2008 1:05 PM

Interesting point, grego7. One of my workmates said the other day that a cheater has put sex before anything else, but so has the spouse who evicts them. I've been mulling on that for a while, a bit uncomfortably, because I sit with Stoic on this...'if you cheat, don't come back and tell me about it, just p**ss off immediately, because I won't want to know you'.

But looking at it your way, the cheater has primarily betrayed the emotional connection with their partner, rather than the sexual connection. Once the emotional link is cut by the cheater, their partner is damaged, sometimes beyond repair.

I guess how you stand on this issue depends on how much you connect sex with emotion... some people have sex and emotion very disconnected in their psyches. There wouldn't be much of an emotional link between these people and their sexual partner in the first place. So they wouldn't see infidelity as very damaging, because their emotional side wouldn't be much affected. For others of us, who connect sex and emotion solidly, infidelity is very damaging, because of the harm dome to our emotional side.

For example, players are serially unfaithful. I've known quite a few players through work etc, and I haven't known one who I would describe as emotionally deep. I think players have sex and emotion really disconnected.

And TW, what do you mean "young Marcus"??? I think you meant to type "Middle-aged Marcus".

Posted by: waterbombe at May 14, 2008 12:13 PM

Dear Virgil,

so you judge people on the way they right....fool you !

No wonder so many cannot find a mate or be cheated on when so many make judgements based on nothing but a few lines of type.

My profliw was not shown because I had not filled in my description with enough type.

You may look now if you wish, but it is not compulsory

Now I will judge you .
I never forgive..............God can do that for me

Posted by: amodnar at May 14, 2008 11:51 AM

Fidelity is something that someone offers you, not something that you have any right to demand or expect. see It as bonus in a relationship. But like blowing a big bubble ,you must realize that it can easily pop at any time,& will eventually pop.
Anyone who expects fidelity probably also expects to get the same taxi or same seat on the bus each day. If people stop chasing-expecting&trying to uphold unrealistic ideals, and instead just take the world for what it really is, they be much happier.
Lets face it many sportsmens wives know the reality of their marriage situation and realize they married a goldmine not a monk. But they are thinking, better me married to a gold mine that someone else.Not a moral issue, just a choice.

Posted by: sincrolad at May 14, 2008 11:47 AM

Lynath has raised the concept of emotional commitment and sexual exclusivity.

An affair would involve some form of emtional commitment by the cheater and therefore is infidelity.

However, what if the sexual activity lacks any emtion eg using the sevices of a sex worker. Should a wife feel betrayed?

I used to take holidays with a close group of married guys. I was the only single. It fscinated me how excited they got about obtaining the services of a professional. This was forbidden fruit I guess which was hidden from their wives.I would consider they were cheating but I dont think this was infidelity.

Infidelity implies a rupture of the emtional commitment to the spouse and this is what causes the feeling of betrayal.

Posted by: grego7 at May 14, 2008 10:30 AM

Infidelity is betrayal

I am sure in some cases, the betrayed partner forgives the straying partner.

Maybe if the cheater was sincerly sorry, and the wronged partner felt there would be no recurrence, there might be a case for forgiveness.

Every case should be decided on the facts and circumstances as to the appropriate action to be taken.

Posted by: virgil at May 14, 2008 9:56 AM

Random May 13, 2008 10:46 PM

Homo sapiens, modern humans, have been around for quite a while, probably about 150 000 years. We have had the same cranial capacity, and intellectual potential as we do now over that time and by best judgement would have been capable of designing an aircraft or a bicycle (given the technology which has obviously developed more slowly) or looking up at the sky and contemplating a past and future. We undoubtedly have been celebrating the marrying (with the concordant transmission of property, status etc) of men and women for some of that time. Certainly well before self referential Judaism/Christianity/Islam etc was inflicted on the rest of us.
The oldest continually worshipped human belief system belongs here in Australia and has been active for perhaps tens of thousands of years. It is the aboriginal creation story, The Dreaming. Like the Bible's unprovable assertion about an omnipotent supernatural deity, it's claims are factually impossible but it served as a platform to make some 'sense' of the world and also on to which base cultural recognition of coming of age, marriage, birth and death.
Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 14, 2008 9:12 AM

Lynath....I am nowhere near angry about the topic, or anything else that I have noticed and believe me, I know when I am angry. I am just debating the topic trying to look at it from all angles...I truly believe that any breakup can be just as devestating and life changing for "any" reason.
I was just thinking about the sanctity of the marriage vows yesterday and some posters had said that the man wanted to stay and work it through. Just tossing around ideas and mulling on what people are saying and reflecting back some thoughts. I am after all an istj and that is what we do.

Posted by: istj54 at May 14, 2008 7:02 AM

Jenniferhi, that's not my story just an excerpt! I would love you to come for dinner one night..as a guest, not a fly.

FP there is no 'sense of intrigue about infidelity' for those on the receiving end. It is not a game.

Throughout the blogs it has already been established that monogomy is a choice There is no one being forced to sign up for commitment with monogamy.

Jealousy has nothing to do with commitment, but rather control and perhaps insecurity ,however the insecurity of being unsure of a loved partners fidelity is a cause of great angst and is emotional abuse, and different to say being jealous and insecure of a partner talking socially with another person(control)

Emotional commitment is not always bound to sexual exclusivity (there are plenty of non sexual relationships) however sexual exclusivity is definitely bound to emotional commitment.

We demand exclusivity from our partner because it is tied up with emotional connection and bonding as well as security and protection and reproduction/nesting and establishment of place in society which leads to happiness and a social order.
We all want to know there is at least one person in the world on whom we can rely upon and trust to hold our best interests at heart.

Regarding your comment "Istj54 brings up a good point when she questions those that are willing to give up an entire relationship because of what they perceive to be a betrayal. Do they not have the capacity to forgive or self reflect? Nothing is black or white. It takes two to relate and navigate change"

Firstly infidelity is not a perceived betrayal. It IS a betrayal.

Secondly I would say the majority of betrayed people have an enormous capacity to accept and work through issues, but as I have already stated that cannot happen unless the betrayer is also willing, and seriously so. Not many people will easily let go of a lifetimes history with someone if they can save it. It is easy to say "If they ever cheat on me that is the end" but when the time comes most people do not do that at all" You appear to be coming at the problem with the attitude of 'they deserve it' or "they made them cheat'
If you want to be a good counsellor when you have finished your course then you need to study a lot more than textbooks, often written by cheaters with their own agenda, I may add. There is nothing worse than getting a person when they are at the lowest point having been betrayed and telling them that they are to blame or responsible. No they are not.
There is a difference between having problems in the relationship and justifications for betrayal. A lot of people find that hard to grasp.
If people feel restless in a marriage then that is the time they should start talking with their partner to resolve issues and problems.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 13, 2008 10:51 PM

Point taken istj54 - and though it may not seem so, I can actually bend when I have to.

However dishonesty - especially in the case of infidelity - is not something I can or will bend to. Not from myself, and not from anyone else.

And as for my principles breaking - well I would have to live with myself 24 hours a day if I did break them and I'd rather not have to do that so I find it easier to just not break them in the first place :)

Posted by: stoic at May 13, 2008 10:49 PM

You could not be farther from the truth stoic.

I am sorry to challenge your vision of reality

I have been bought up in the strictest Lutheran faith as I am Finnish.

That does not permit me from having not only an n opinion, but also a questioning and enquiring mind.
The first thing the Lutheran Church do for you when you are being confirmed is to supply you with scientific publications on how religion came to be and how the bible was formed.

It was not as many believe the Holy Word of God.

It was merely made up of discovered manuscripts and pieced together by the “church�
It is neither complete nor profound.

Many pieces of manuscript were never included in the “Bible�

You have to understand that this is not a figment of my imagination but is based on what I know to be the facts that are available .When I say facts, I don’t mean unchallengeable “facts� as there are non except for the pure sciences.

Read on.
Different Churches have different views

“Marriage is a wonderful invention; but, then again, so is a bicycle repair kit.�
(Chaucer)

Have you not read, he replied, that at the beginning the Creator "made them male and female," and said, "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh"? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate (Matthew 19:4–6, Mark 10:6–9).

Neither spouse owns her or his own body; that body belongs to the other spouse, and to them both jointly (1 Corinthians 7:4).

God's doing: "God himself is the author of marriage," In Roman Catholicism, the Church teaches that marriage is which is his way of showing love for those he created. Because a marriage is a divine institution it can never be broken, even if the partners are legally divorced: as long as they are both alive, the Church considers them bound together by God.
Marriage is intended to be a faithful, exclusive, lifelong union of a man and a woman joined in an intimate community of life and love. They commit themselves completely to each other and to the responsibility of bringing children into the world and caring for them. The call to marriage is considered to be woven deeply into the human spirit. Man and woman are equal. However, as created, they are different from, but made for, each other. This complementarily, including sexual difference, draws them together in a mutually loving union that should be always open to the procreation of children.
In God's plan for marriage, holy matrimony is considered an intimate union in which the spouses give themselves, as equal persons, completely and lovingly to one another. The Roman Catholic Church teaches that marriage is both a natural institution and a sacred union because it is rooted in the divine plan for creation. The valid marriage of baptized Christians is one of the seven Roman Catholic sacraments — a saving reality.
Marriage is seen as a public sign in at least two ways:
It is a public sign that a husband and a wife each gives oneself totally to each other.
It is also a public statement about God: the loving union of husband and wife speaks of family values and also God's values.

In Eastern Orthodoxy, marriage is treated as a Sacred Mystery (sacrament), and as an ordination. And, like all ordinations, it is considered to be a martyrdom
, as each spouse learns to die to him- or herself for the sake of the other. Like all Mysteries, Orthodox marriage is more than just a celebration of something which already exists: it is the creation of something new, the imparting to the couple of the grace which transforms them from a 'couple' into husband and wife within the Body of Christ. In addition, marriage is an icon (image) of the relationship between Jesus and the Church. This is somewhat akin to the Old Testament prophets' use of marriage as an analogy to describe the relationship between God and Israel. Marriage is simplest, most basic unity of the church: a congregation where "two or three are gathered together in [Jesus'] name" (Matthew 18:20). The home is considered a consecrated space (the ritual for the Blessing of a House is based upon that of the Consecration of a Church), and the husband and wife are considered the ministers of that congregation. However, the do not "perform" the Sacraments in the house church, they "live" the Sacrament of Marriage. Because marriage is considered to be a pilgrimage wherein the couple walk side by side toward the Kingdom of Heaven, marriage to a non-Orthodox partner is discouraged, though it may be permitted.
In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints ("LDS Church"; see also Mormon), "Celestial Marriage" is a sacred covenant between a man, a woman and God performed by a priesthood authority in the temples of the Church. Eternal Marriage is legally recognized, but unlike other civil marriages, Eternal Marriage is intended to continue into the afterlife after the resurrection if the man and woman do not break their covenants. Eternally married couples are often referred to as being "sealed" to each other. Sealed couples who keep their covenants are also promised to have their posterity sealed to them in the after life. Thus, the slogan of the LDS Church: "families are forever." The LDS Church encourages its members to be in good standing with it so that they may marry in the temple. "Cancellation of a sealing," sometimes incorrectly called a "temple divorce," is uncommon and is granted only by the highest authority in the Church. Civil divorce and marriage outside the temple is somewhat of a stigma in the Latter-day Saint culture although currently the Church itself directs its local leaders not to advise members about divorce one way or another. In the New Church (or Swedenborgianism), marriage is considered a sacred covenant between one man, one woman and the Lord. The doctrine of the New Church teaches that married love (sometime translated conjugal love) is "the precious jewel of human life and the repository of the Christian religion" because the love shared between a husband and a wife is the source of all peace and joy. Marriage is also meant to be eternal and divorce is only allowable when the spiritual union is broken by adultery. When a husband and wife work together to become angels in heaven, their marriage continues uninterrupted even after the death of their bodies, living together in heaven to eternity. Emanuel Swedenborg claimed to have spoken to angels who had been married for thousands of years. Those who are never married on earth will find a spouse in heaven.

Posted by: amodnar at May 13, 2008 10:46 PM

amondmar

Recently I was in favour of known bloggers hiding their profiles for certain reasons.

I dont know you, yet what you say sounds familiar. Did you have another name before, or are you a new blogger?

Most of what you say about religion and marriage has been very well answered by stoic.

What still puts bums on seats in churches is the very real payoffs in the here and now, not always in the afterlife.

A sense of community, companionship, a connection with the traditions of our childhood.

I had the privilege of serving in the music ministry for several years, playing my guitar, etc, and also being the church auditor finishing when I left for South Australia last year.

It makes many people feel good, knowing that they are doing something, without the thought in the back of their mind, whats in it for me?

Posted by: virgil at May 13, 2008 10:29 PM

Hi Kaz,
There was a group of people in an industry I worked in who were into couple swapping parties, by mutual consent. It was active for about 12 months, then one night one husband objected to his wifes partner, his partner was the wife of the one he objected to,she went her willful way and the marriage ended in divorce. How can you explain that as a case of cheating, or was it?
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 13, 2008 10:16 PM

oh well, Bob he is not getting any younger is he, and now has more to lose financially if he cheats and less chance of finding someone new. And why should he as it's all about him and his needs which are being met by a woman who is too scared to do anything else. After all she knows what to expect if she doesn't perform.
They deserve each other.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 13, 2008 10:13 PM

Hi All,

I just related this story to a friend by email; but it is topical.

Last Friday night I met up with a guy with whom I was very close for years, but we had drifted apart over recent years. This guy WAS the biggest womaniser I have ever met in my life. He has the gift of the gab and always had a girl on the side, when he was married or dating or had a steady girlfriend.

These days he is married again (now for about 15 years) has 2 kids and the thought of cheating on his wife is not in his radar. She knows his whole history...she should, he was seeing her on the side when he was in a solid relationship. Anyway, here is a guy that doesn't seem to be in a never ending cycle of cheating....but you would have to ask why he has suddenly become so trustworhy. Fact is his new wife keeps him interested (both in the bed abd out), looks after her own appearance (without vanity)...and trusts him so much that when he stays out, there is no third degree.

Maybe there are more reasons than we know why people cheat on each other...nothing is black and white...go figure that a serial cheater is finally happy enough in his relationship that he is now probably one of the most trustworthy husbands around!!

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 13, 2008 9:42 PM

waterbombe at 2.52pm: I'm charmed by your suggestion about empanelling Robert, Marcus and myself on the podium.

And I understand your excellent marketing idea to have us accompanied on stage with some suitable large symbolic prop.

But I don't think you've picked on a suitable symbol. First of all, even verballising the concept is offensive to some, as amodnar was justsaying.

Can't have females on the blogs talking enthusiastically about massive M G!

That could be SO discouraging and wounding to all the male readers who are not so well-endowed themselves.

It's embarrassing enough being asked at an RSVP first date (as I have) whether it still works (luckily for me, it still does) without the further anxiety of wondering if she's then going to ask "So how big is it?"

I'm comfortable about being asked how big my car is (small economical 4-cylinder, now 17); how big my house is (only half a house, and rented) and how big my boat is (it was a kids' vinyl rubber duckie for my son when he was 8 - long since perished, rolled up and popped in the wheelie bin.)

But THAT question? If I answer "A lot smaller than yours, I guess" to all 4 questions, I'm sure to get into trouble. Or not.

So how about a competition to think of an appropriate symbol for the attitudes that all 3 of us seem to share, rather than just focussing on young Marcus and his main visible preoccupation?

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 13, 2008 7:44 PM

FP. if we view monogamy as a choice, okay l can go along with that view, and see where you are coming from.

If it is a choice based decision, it should be the choice of both, yes??

Then by that definition, should not the choice to not be monogamous, eg; have an affair, be made by both ??
Which of course it isn't, as the one who strays will usually never come clean straight up and admit it. Far better to bury their head in the sand and pretend it isn't happening......

Can we really judge such an emotive subject in a clinical way ???
And by that l don't mean you as to what your professional skills expect, l mean as people in general.

Ah FP you always manage to throw up some interesting points for discussion.................K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 13, 2008 7:30 PM

A scholar? Based on your first point I have my doubts. I see more anti-religious bigotry than I see critical analysis.

Religion only invented for the gullible? In as much as our ancestors had little understanding of scientific research, what having just come out of the trees, and that every society in human history has had some sort of higher power/spirit/spirits to appeal to for a good harvest/rains, a safe voyage, victory on the battlefields or even just inspiration, it is hard to see someone sat around saying "How can I fool all these idiots"

And marriage being a religious invention? Hardly. Maybe since the Middle Ages it has taken on primarily religious overtones. Prior to that, marriage had almost nothing to do with religion. The Council of Florence from 1431 to 1445 is one of the earlier reports of marriage actually being an official Holy Sacrament. That leaves a great several thousand years of marriages (often to many partners in many cultures and areas) without
any significant religious requirements or influence.

Throughout the ancient world, marriage was a tool to consolidate land, power, inheritance (through the production of "legitimate" heirs) and alliances. The Romans elevated it (and adoption) to an art form, divorcing and remarrying almost at will if an advantage could be gained.

Even in the middle ages, particularly in the aristocracy it was all about alliances and property interests.

Maybe you "simplified" it way too much for a layman audience but I am wonder just what you are a scholar of.

Posted by: stoic at May 13, 2008 7:30 PM

...stoic, where's my tree?

FP thank you for understanding what I was getting at in my postings...I'm just trying to look at it from all angles...nothing in life is black and white and we need to work on relationships from this perspective...Stoic, you are a man of great principles and I hope that they do not break you in life. You may need to bend with the wind...like my tree...where did you say it was again?

Posted by: istj54 at May 13, 2008 7:26 PM

ISTJ, before you wrote that post at May 13, 2008 7:41 AM did you think about it?
It takes two to agree to the committment/contract but only one to break it. Would it occur to you that the cheater might not want to stay in the relationship, to stay and face the hard work of rebuilding trust.(an almost impossible task) Especially when they are at the height of their fantasy relationship which is really the exit from whatever problem they have within the primary relationship.

I don't think that I have taken the moral stance you are trying to attribute to me. I have never said that people must stay together no matter what..only ever pointed out the damage that infidelity causes to others.

Why ae you so angry about it?

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 13, 2008 7:05 PM

Thanks Lynath.

And istj54 - you are barking up the wrong tree.

I am on record here on these blogs (need to get in the way back machine) as saying that I consider that marriage should be a lifelong commitment and that I think too many people enter marriage too lightly.

I am also on record as saying the partner who breaks that commitment (especially in the case of spousal abuse or infidelity) has voided the contract and thus deserves nothing out of the dissolution of the contract other than that which the non-breaking party decides to bestow.

None of that being inconsistent with my stance on cheating (in either a marriage or relationship), nor with the fact I have never been married and know of very few women who feel the same (namely that too many people enter marriage too lightly and don't deem cheating and abuse to be the deal breaker I do)

I really don't understand your attempt to try and find inconsistency in an apparent attempt to draw a moral equivalence between cheating and telling said cheater to F off. You can write that into your own vows if you wish. I accept your apology.

As to myself, I will continue to have the self-respect to not accept that sort of behaviour from someone I am involved with.

Posted by: stoic at May 13, 2008 5:51 PM

What is typical of most people is the fact that the possibility of infidelity is a fact of life. How we deal with it is up to us. We can approach it with fear, avoidance and moral outrage; or we can bring it to a robust curiosity and a sense of intrigue.

Marriage has become a matter of love; love is a matter of choice; and choice implies renouncing others.

Id like to suggest that we view monogamy not as a given but as a choice. A number of questions arise in discussion of this. Is emotional commitment always bound to sexual exclusivity? Can we love more than one person at the same time? Is sex ever 'just sex'? Are men naturally more prone to roam than women? These questions top the list, but there are more...Is jealousy an expression of love or a sign of insecurity? Why are we eager to share our friends, but demand exclusivity from our lover?
I don't pretend to have an answer to these questions. I do believe however that we can benefit from analysing our own romantic nostalgia, in order to ponder them seriously.

People do feel restless in marriage. This isnt a justification of infidelity, or an endorsement of it, but Istj54 brings up a good point when she questions those that are willing to give up an entire relationship because of what they perceive to be a betrayal. Do they not have the capacity to forgive or self reflect? Nothing is black or white. It takes two to relate and navigate change.
The exception to this is the sociopathic personality, whose behaviour is unprincipled, exploitive and is carried out with little or no concern for others' rights and feelings. Little guilt or remorse occurs, even when the person is found out.

All of us have some of these impulses of course. Which of us hasn't come close to lying, stealing when the opportunity arises, or catching a train without buying a ticket? But mostly we curb these impulses and don't act on them as we recognise that our action is wrong as it harms others.

Certainly these are antisocial and deceitful practises, but they are within the normal range of behaviour.

I speak from some authority and declare my background in clinical psychology and am always interested in hearing the opinion of others.

Posted by: femalepersuasion at May 13, 2008 5:06 PM

waterbombe . I dont know how your comments about massive male genitalia on stage slipped throught the cracks.
I find it offensive, maybe we need to talk more about nuts and nutcrackers for RSVP to remove those posts?

Posted by: amodnar at May 13, 2008 4:42 PM

jennifer ....you have missed the point entirely.

I am a scholar ., not a believer.
I was pointing out that marriage is an invention by religions.

It is not my interpretation.it is fact ...and it is in the bible as it is in many writings and teachings of many religions.
You must remember that religion was only invented for the gullible and those who need a belief that there was some one or somethinmg greater than ourselfs and that death could not be the finality.

hence it has become a major industry based on fear and guilt.
It is diminishing our days because many people have become thinkers and are thinking for themselves , not allowing a church or government to think for them.In other words we are becoming more educated.

Your second point.

Most of our belief stsytems are in us from the age of 8 and are a product of our environment.
It does not mean that someone will follow in the path of their parents.
It means that certain beliefs and morals are in us from that point and influence our behaviour patterns as adults.
You see girls who come from an abused background seek out , more than the average, men , who will abuse them., or marry people not unlike their fathers.
On the other hand men from abusive fathers will more than the normal tend to accept this as acceptable behaviour and become abusive themselves because they see this as normal.Or with promiscious mothers will assume all women are like this, or alternatively hate all women because of this infidelity
On the other hand a few will be repulsed by it and form opinions and behaviours before the age of 8 that will change them into the totally opposite.
That is women afraid of men and sex , men who treasure women to the point they will see physical contact as an extreme.
In the middle will be a percentage that can behave either way , that is both submissive or aggressive and seeking out either of those personality types.
But, you see, this all happens at a very early age.
Some people do change , but the majority slip back into their old habits and beliefs which were formed at a very early age.

Some people grow through life experiences but most remain the same as they have always been despite their efforts.
Their ingrained thoughts from their subconsciuos continue to control their life and their behaviours.

Posted by: amodnar at May 13, 2008 4:36 PM

Ah, TW, you caught me out, I can't do my maths...Marcus and the Triplets would be 4 people wouldn't it? Tres confusement. How to find four?....Well perhaps you could have Marcus, you, Ogre and a set of massive male genitalia on the stage. I'm just thinking that they are SO important in our evolutionary heritage that they should be represented. I bet Marcus could put his hands on some if you and Ogre are a bit short.

Posted by: waterbombe at May 13, 2008 2:52 PM

Well - I always my tell my dear friends who have been hurt after the end of the relationship - Move on and the best way to get over some one is to get under someone! Pay back time.

Posted by: bygonebeauty at May 13, 2008 12:01 PM

amodnar 9.12am What the....?
You say you are not a Christian yet are trying to push your intepretation of the Bible to justify what you have written. Huh???

Agreed a lot of our behaviours on right or wrong are instilled in us from a young age but to say we cannot change those behaviours or patterns is a nonsense. In your theory then children from broken homes or who come from an abusive background, whatever the reason, then are doomed to continue the patterns they were instilled with? I think not! In some cases, yes, but definately not always.

And as if those commiting a wrong do not often have a conscience in a lot of cases. Often it is that that may stop them. Even if a wrong is commited what about forgiveness? Isn't that a basic core belief in the Christain faith?

Everyone has the power to move on from a bad past, a hurt or of commiting those things. We owe it to ourselves.

Istj54 - That last part of your post - Like what you have written very much. I think that can be so true.

Lynath - Thankyou for sharing your story. I do hope though that you didn't feel you had to do that.

I'd like to think though that in the majority of people who contribute to the blogs there is a 'caring' about people. To take the time to get involved shows there is a comaraderie between people. We can't all agree on everything and that's why the world is so wonderful. We learn by interaction and experiences.

I would so love to be a fly on the wall at a dinner party between say Marcus, Lynath, Perth, Timewarp and a few of the others.
How interesting would that be?

Have a great day all.

Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at May 13, 2008 10:49 AM

Isjt54 ,,,....how awful for you that you have so low self esteem and actually believe a marriage vow means anything.
If you are faithful or unfathful it is up to the person.
No amount of fixing or trying to fix the person will work.
The person is a cheat and could not lie straight in be and all fixing in the world will never change that.
Move on, become yourself and not Mrs fixit or missus "f*****t.
The vows and marriage were put there in the beginning By God handed to the church so that two people could fornicate without sin.
It's in the bible ,....read it.

I am not a christian and do not believe in anything except today,I do not need a bible, a law or a declaration on a piece of paper to suddnely turn me into a faithful person.
For those who see that this will change their moral behaviuor they are wrong.

Your basic behaviour and thoughts on right and wrong are in you from a very early age and will not change and they will come out as desire (just like Dexter) with no thought of right or wrong or who I am hurting.
And i note to Isjt54 .they do reright the vowels everyday to suit the individual, if you do not want faithfullness in your marriage than why marry in the first place......women want it more than men.........and apart from wanting to have children , I have no other idea why .

Posted by: amodnar at May 13, 2008 9:12 AM

Funny....or very huge contradiction going on in my head here as I read... for all of you oh, so highly moral, principled people....some of you did not stay in your marriages after cheating was detected...it was obviously far worse to stay and work on the vows you made...your commitment for better, or worse...oh, no...cheating is "too" worse...I will break my legal, solemn vows...but still have my integrity in tact...well do you really? They really should re-write the vows to suit what you think is important...we could get stoic and lynath onto that. They know what is best for us...and if we don't follow their code...eternal damnation awaits....cheating hurts so badly because deep down you know that just maybe...something was lacking...it cuts to the core of self-esteem and makes you look deep into your own behaviours and that always hurts...and then you grow and become stronger.

Posted by: istj54 at May 13, 2008 7:41 AM

Stoic ..hmm let me think about it..no standards stay put. and I stand by them.I have moved on and a very exciting journey it has been.
I love the idea that there are young men out there like yourself that also have integrity.

Marcus I wish there was a sound bite attached to the blogs with laughing on it. your last one was a two minute roll on the floor effort. I have suggested strategies to deal with infidelity..1. don't go there
2. don't commit if you have no intention of keeping your word
3. leave a relationship prior to commencing any new one.

Now about your gender needs theory form the Marcus School of Thought..Marcusianism What about the needs of the partner who does want a committed monogamous relationship? Are you saying that one person's needs(the MALE) are important and the other person's not?
Regarding your huge genital/sperm production idea. There are plenty of men in the community who are infertile or have negligible sperm production and they have affairs...how does your evolutionary method of cheating justification fit in here? Wouldn't nature be making sure they weren't out wasting time spreading evolutionary nothing?

Which reminds me of something funny I heard today. Taken from a real patients file the following words
"On examination of the genitals it was noted that the male was circus sized"
Was that your file Marcus?

NGG, no it is not a good idea for someone not over a past relationship to be on a dating site...especially the married ones.They are called cheaters.

But since this is a blog about cheating it is an appropriate place to give a bit of insight..you know like reality tv. I am old enough to not care what people think, and I have written nothing I am ashamed of or embarrassed by. You can stop me if you see me posting about infidelity on other blogs.
I would like people to understand the reality of cheating. As I stated before I am also involved on another level in this area and will take every opportunity to convey the message about the damage.

My own experience was a decade ago and only ever rates a mention in appropriate places like this one and a very rare thought.

Perhaps we can have a blog entitled life after divorce which can demonstrate the positive outcomes for many after rebuilding lives.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 13, 2008 12:04 AM

Perth @ 10.30pm:

1) I agree completely with you about beginning by making sure that our own behaviour is beyond reproach. As I am sure yours always is, China Doll. That's what allows you to be always so sure of yourself.

3) And I agree that it's harder to change other people. Especially if they really enjoy being what they are already, be it saint or sinner.

But I disagree with you when you said it's not possible to change other people at all. I believe that's actually projection on your part.

I believe that it is sometimes possible, but that the only way to do it is to deeply love the person you are involved with, warts and all. Including loving the warts.

I believe that can sometimes cause them to grow to be more like what you'd prefer them to be - if they are people of good will, and also have the capacity to love others as much as themselves. But if not, I have to agree with you - no-one will ever change them one tiny bit. They'll make sure of that.

2) But there's a second step, in between the two above. Before you begin to get involved with anyone, let alone get to step 3 above, check them out. Very carefully.

Unless you're the bottom of the barrel yourself, you have a duty to your future happiness to try to identify and reject the players and the crazies, before they get you into their cunning clutches.

"We have to do our own searching for hints of unresolved issues in each of the people we meet. As well as hints of deceptive or controlling behaviour, and everything else that we hope our next darling won't come to us, already infected with." As I said before.

4) Actually, I was surprised to see that it was you taking the stance on this issue that you did. It's more the sort of thing that I would have expected from RandomA - sorry, I meant from amodnar.

Night all.

Put a lot of effort into sussing out the people who are hitting onto you

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 12, 2008 11:49 PM

Lots of wise 95 year olds saying that very same thing amodnar...... maybe you all get your material from the the same source.........
The subject is so popular possibly because pepole have strong views on it, one would think........ or is that too naive as well..............K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 12, 2008 10:46 PM

We have to do our own searching for hints of unresolved issues in each of the people we meet. As well as hints of deceptive or controlling behaviour, and everything else that we hope our next darling won't come to us, already infected with.

That's exactly what we don't want. We can only look for these traits within ourselves and control the way we behave. The only person we can control in this world is ourselves and I believe if we all did that the world would be a happier place.

Posted by: iaminperth at May 12, 2008 10:30 PM

Recently in relationships i have been accused of cheating because i am a naturally friendly person and inadvertently flirt with everybody. Posted by anqua1 on the 6/5/08............................................

I have to admit that I'm also a naturally friendly person and have been accused of flirting deliberately with men (by either partners or friends).

I never set out to hurt anyone and I don't flirt intentionally (I wouldn't know I was flirting if it slapped me in the face).

In my opinion, flirting is not cheating. Cheating is intentionally getting involved with someone other than your partner.

I've been in this situation when I discovered that my fiance had been caught in a compromising situation with another MAN!! That was shocking to me at the time (I was only 18) and it was my friends that told me about it (however, we'd broken up the week before for other reasons).

Cheating is hurtful no matter what kind of relationship you're in (hetero, gay or lesbian). I've always had a rule in my relationships - if either myself or ptr become interested in another person to the extent that we don't have feelings for each other anymore, then we're honest about it rather than cheating. Yes, it's still hurtful, but to me, it's safer and a healthier way to end a relationship.

Samantha

Posted by: giggles33 at May 12, 2008 10:05 PM

Well Lynath, I guess you have just been not so subtly told.

You need to move on - which apparently involves giving up on your convictions and moral courage, lowering your standards to allow for infidelity, and not calling out bad behaviour when you encounter it.

Oh whatever will you do....

Posted by: stoic at May 12, 2008 10:02 PM

not gods gift

Wouls you say , that half of the people on a dating site are in a relationship and the other half are looking for an excuse to get out of one ?

Posted by: amodnar at May 12, 2008 9:24 PM

NGG at 8.52pm: Horses for courses, I reckon. RSVP owes it to the shareholders to sell as many stamps as possible. To whoever.

Including highly moral people who've never had a relationship yet and want a church marriage or nothing, thank you very much - all the way to norty married people looking for other norty married people for a little "discrete dalliance" to add some excitement and/or danger to their lives.

RSVP can only provide some alternative agendas for us to tick (NOT including the latter above - that has to be in code in the fine print.)

We have to do our own searching for hints of unresolved issues in each of the people we meet. As well as hints of deceptive or controlling behaviour, and everything else that we hope our next darling won't come to us, already infected with.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 12, 2008 9:22 PM

Not at all, maybe it was my intuition or maybe I was not as naive as some to suggest that there was more to some of the comments directed to each than a mere meeting or whatever bloggers do in their spare time.

tell me , maybe this why the subject is so popular.

A very wise 95 year old(he he he he) once said to me

"If you have a clear conscience than you are either a liar or dead "

Posted by: amodnar at May 12, 2008 9:21 PM

Lynathdiary @ Frequently

Chris, I haven't advocated infidelity, just tried to look at it objectively and with the benefit of some scientific perspective. You do not have the intellectual honesty to agree that advising people about the high likelihood of infidelity and suggesting strategies to deal with it is practical response.
In other posts I have written about the desirability of a cohesive society. I always remember that where ever freedoms are greater, social indicators like health, wealth, personal satisfaction, longevity etc are higher.
In the West male infidelity is much more tolerated, even expected, because of the differences between gender partner needs. It is pretty hard to overide millions of years of patient evolutionary refinement with a few short years of a particular cultural overlay. The prodigious genitals and huge sperm producing capability of men versus the 28 day female cycle gives us plenty of clues .
On your points about violence; I fully agree with you. Nature is red in tooth and claw and we should strive not to be. This is not incompatable with my other comments
Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 12, 2008 9:14 PM

I agree Bob, That is one of the most important lessons in life I think. A very elderly, very successful friend told me once ' you must tip out all the dirty water before you put in the new'. Makes a lot of sense to me. Whilst I am sympathetic to people who have been hurt, I don't want to discuss it endlessly hear about it or be compared with it. That is a huge deal breaker for me, I'm not interested in another person in a relationship. I also take the view there is a lot of professional help out there for people to get over their negative experiences in life to enable them to move on. If you carry anger and hurt around with you all your life there is no room for anything new.

Posted by: iaminperth at May 12, 2008 9:13 PM

Lynath,

Whilst we moralising let me pose this ethics question. Should someone that is not through their past relationship be on a dating site....how fair is that to people that one might meet given those people are looking seriously for a partner because they dont have these same issues with their pasts?

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 12, 2008 8:52 PM

Perth at 7.24pm: Hi china doll. Glad you enjoyed the broad acres. But aren't you being a bit severe on the bOm?

Your approach sounds too much like down-to-earth practical reality therapy to me. Are you trying to cure her of her co-dependent infatuation? So soon?

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 12, 2008 8:38 PM

Waterbombe at 7.24pm mentioned Marcus and the triplets. I tried counting on my fingers to be sure, but please, who are the triplets again?

And did I remember you mentioning them just previously today on the other blog?

I'm getting confused. If I didn't have to get back to work in a minute, I think I'd have a drink.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 12, 2008 8:18 PM

Jesus i hope i don't meet the person who posted a comment along the lines of...who needs morals, as long as it's been a fun day. While you lob on about sex and fun and excitement, know that it is at the expense of the partners who are left wondering why? and often heartbroken children as well. Casual sex is on offer everywhere, so chase that and leave other peoples feelings and lives out of it. Cheating is lack of character and weak...pure and simple.

Posted by: bliss1970 at May 12, 2008 7:34 PM

Beautiful0mind, sounds like a bit of Lackof 0Mind to me....why would you want a long term relationship with someone who treats you like that. Why do you like/accept being treated like that. You say you love him...what is there to love about him...name one thing. Did he make you happy, no...did he make you feel good about yourself...no. Did you make him happy, obviously not he screwed around. I ask again why do you want to be treated like that. Wake up, if you accept that kind of rubbish it will always happen.

Posted by: iaminperth at May 12, 2008 7:24 PM

Lynath, that was a touching post. I can see how outside pressures produce that kind of situation, and also how hurt you must be.

Fidelity is linked to committment, isn't it....hmmm...lots of men want fidelity from their partners...most of them want a woman who doesn't play around, I imagine...so that leaves MurkAss and the Triplets in a bit of a weird space...well, we knew that. Sad litle trio. (Have you guys thought of forming a band? Catchy name, isn't it, MurkAss and the Triplets, and you could keep singing the same songs over and over again and get away with it...unlike what happens here. It might appeal to you...repetitive behaviour, repetitive message, all set to music. Think about it, really, I think you might have a future with that.)

Posted by: waterbombe at May 12, 2008 7:24 PM

Posted by: amodnar at May 11, 2008 11:50 PM

Yes it is quite bizarre............some of the bloggers do meet each other at social get togethers and are connected by being good friends........:)))

Posted by: jenjen57 at May 12, 2008 6:36 PM

amodnar, are you saying that other bloggers meet??? Or are you justsaying that they have friendships that are betrayed ??......curious.......................K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 12, 2008 5:23 PM

Lynath

The Icarus Principle.

No. Not the Peter Principle (I've got enough of them at work)

The Icarus Principle. You. Not Him.

Posted by: oohlala2 at May 12, 2008 5:04 PM

Hi all

I have meet this guyA on another dating website and we were dating for more than a year. We both felt good at the beginning, so we deleted our profile on that website. He mentioned RSVP to me accidentally, so I tried to search and I found out he got a profile here, I am 100% sure that is his. I did try to send him a kiss here on RSVP, he replied email soon to ask me out. This made me feel really bad, I tried to ask him about if he is looking for relationship on RSVP, he just keep deny said he is too busy to do that. So we keep on dating, however, I have found used condom in his rubbish twice, I did not mean it, but unfortunately I found them when I just glanced that, then we argued, first he denied then he blamed me for investgated his life. He even said maybe there are many men's stuff left in my place, ouch!! He said his friends sometimes go to his house with their gf. ok I tried to believe, but such things are keep on happening, sometimes I found a woman's rubber band for hair in the toilet, sometimes I found different toothbrushes(pink color). He threw away my toothbrush though. I even saw him on the street with another woman once, but i did not go to say hi, I did not want to make tension between us and tried to believe is his friend while my intuition tells me is not. I kept lying to myself that there are all his friend's gf's. Because I love him so much. When we were together he treated me very good, but if we argued through text or email, he can be cruel, like 2 different person. Finally I asked him for long term relationship through text, he told me he need freedom. So the game is over, for me it was really hurt, I have been so generous to forgave him for everything because I love him and tried to keep this relationship, but he seems did not understand at all, I wonder if he had any feeling. But when the time we were together he was so different, he told me he likes me so much and I have the potential to be his future, all bullsh*ts!!!

Have you guys meet this kind of online dating experts? Do you all believe you can find a fidelity partner through internet? Or nobody will be fidelity nowadays?

Posted by: beautiful0mind at May 12, 2008 3:38 PM

Marcus re: your suggestion that affairs are inevitable .. does that mean you believe that men are so weak and animalistic that they can't control themselves. That they are so unevolved or lacking in conscience that they can be excused any behaviour? That they lack the integrity of their word?
Not many men would like to be thought of in that way.

Your argument that monogamy is not a feature of the animal world and therefore should not be a feature of the human animal fails to address the higher levels of conscious awareness, self actualisation and moral choice that is our privilege.

I have never argued that infidelity does not occur only that there is no need for it to occur ,especially when it is known to be so damaging to its victims. People are free to choose to be or not be in relationships. There is not even any pressure to marry at all these days.Why then should infidelity be condoned or accepted?

If you saw someone being attacked physically and hurt would you argue that was quite alright because animals attack each other? We expect certain standards of behaviour for the good of the group don't we in order to live ordered, pleasant lives. Just because you can't see the wounds from the attack of infidelity doesn't mean they are not deep and damaging, and also indicates it is not beneficial behaviour for the group.

While you continue to twist my words and meanings as usual, you also arrogantly and laughably attempt to dismiss documented evidence of the collective of worldwide scholars and practitioners in this field as'hysterical motherhood statements' , poorly thought out and ethically suspect.
I am sure they will be hurt by your estimation of the quality of their work and will rewrite the years of research based on your pet lizard observation.

The 'no fault' divorce law brought into being by a man to protect other men, to more extent than women, went a long way to enable people to avoid any public scrutiny of their actions.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 12, 2008 3:13 PM

Hi again.
What an interesting subject. Looking at cheating from a historical point of view; when was “multi partnering” deemed, by our western society, to be morally corrupt and termed as “cheating”. Was there not an age, up to about the end of the depression of the 1930’s perhaps, when extra marital affairs, for what ever reasons, were accepted practice in western society? In the early development of mankind, was not polygamy the norm, for the sake of the survival of the tribe? Do not many societies and groups legally and morally accept and still practice polygamy and multi partnerships with impunity today?
Did Charles cheat on Camilla or on Dianna? Who was cheating on whom. Food for thought.
Ps. I have felt the pain and humiliation of a straying partner. And stayed in that relationship, ever hopeful, longer than I should have. Learned that one cannot resuscitate something which is dead. (only, perhaps, reconstruct it in a different form)

Posted by: kianee at May 12, 2008 2:05 PM

Lynath.
Thanks for that, it explains a lot not understood about you before.
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 12, 2008 1:22 PM

amberlight58 at May 11, 2008 11:30 PM

Don't worry Amber I have my emotional moments.
My interest is in the underlying scientific, physiological and evolutionary reasons for human behaviour. Emotions may be a consequence of those. It is interesting and important to understand your own processes.
Sexual love it can be argued is a sick state and an evolutionary trick. I find that a fascinating premise to examine but it doesn't stop me feeling all the feelings when I meet someone.

Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 12, 2008 1:21 PM

Waterbombe @ 8.34: You're barking up the wrong tree I'm afraid. Nothing random about his allegations. They're real, and he knows it, because he's talking about himself - and a little too gloatingly at the moment, methinks.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 12, 2008 10:24 AM

Good on you if it tells you something, amodnar, go off and use t to your own advantage, and do the rest of us the favour of taking your judgements somewhere else. I think the "cheating amongst bloggers" you see is in your own imagination...time to fine-tune your own perceptions, perhaps?

Posted by: waterbombe at May 12, 2008 8:34 AM

What about cheating yourself? I think many people cheat themselves out of all sorts of things. Posted by: woodnwine at May 11, 2008 9:07 AM

The ones who delude themselves into thinking that they are the ones who are always hardly done by?

Posted by: waterlily58 at May 11, 2008 12:26 PM

Perhaps.

Posted by: woodnwine at May 12, 2008 8:25 AM

Posted by: amodnar at May 11, 2008 11:55 PM

The point I am trying to make, obviously badly, is that my ex husband did not display the dishonest traits at 19 that became part of his character twenty years later. So no, I didn't choose to be with a man like him when I married him.

And it was totally my fault that the marriage ended. He did not want to leave ( he couldn't understand why I was so angry hurt and destroyed about his affair when he "still loved me and the kids more than life") I evicted him.

Have a lovely Monday everyone :)

Posted by: jenjen57 at May 12, 2008 7:19 AM

Amberlight, jenjen, Timewarp, virgil ,oldergent, Kaz , waterbombe and lonelyheart thankyou all.
Hope I haven't missed anyone.

NGG I read and comprehended your posts quite well thanks but can see that you have no intention of understanding mine.

Jenniferhi I am sorry . I know your posts are always made with good intentions and you never try to hurt anyone.

I was going to stop posting on this but the entry from FP caused me to want to write a bit more. FP your post raises some questions for me and perhaps others.
If we believe that view on monogomy (a product of fear of abandonment) then relationships are pretty sad. That view makes the desire to be in a stable monogomous relationship imply there is something wrong.
The majority of profiles on RSVP alone lean towards people looking for that wonderful peace and stability a monogamous commitment brings. Surely they can't all be concerned with jealousy and abandonment issues.

you wrote:

"What is cheating anyway... a label that possibly describes the escape from a partner we can no longer grow with..or talk to..or understand? If someone is that desperate to get away from you..let them go with grace, and ask yourselves why they resorted to that rather than try and discuss their unhappiness with you."

to which I want to say "that is a limited view on infidelity." Sometimes the catalyst for it is very removed from the primary relationship.

The betrayer may not necessarily be trying to escape the relationship at all but rather other problems which are causing stress and pressure in their life. If timing is right and a person presents themselve to enable the infidelity it may seem like an ideal escape from the problems.

I can tell you that for the 24 years we were together we said I love you, called each other during the day and he still brought me flowers.About two weeks before I discovered his very short term affair we went shopping. A sales person actually asked us if we were newly weds as we seemed so happy and close. We had plans for all sorts of things and sat down everynight with a glass of wine to talk together.
Does that sound like someone trying to escape?

The catalyst for the affair came from two fronts. Unresolved problems between ex and our then teenage son combined with ex undertaking a huge work project which affected the nation and was receiving more than some criticism.Ex was under enormous mental pressure. The woman ex began the affair with was working closely on the project(and bonding like that is a well known trigger for affairs) They spent 16 or more hours a day together and sometimes travelling. She was looking to exit her own marriage and in addition ex was about to be given something in recognition of his work that she desperately wanted to share, in order to improve her own career profile.

Let's see? A teenager with a serious problem with his father and a wife insisiting on resolution on top of the overload at work ,or a woman who appeared to have no problems what so ever and was offering the excitement of a new sexaul relationship a shared exciting career and escape from pressure

At that stage my "love and acceptance" saw me more than willing to work through the problem and save the long and mostly happy marriage. Yes Marcus I can confirm and agree that it is possible at this stage, if both parties are willing, that the affair can renew something stronger and better than ever . There is nothing like jealousy to renew sexual attraction and desire and all of a sudden issues become very clear.
Ex however was in a total state of confusion and needed time, but he was still working with the other woman and she wasn't about to let go to give the marriage a chance, she wanted what he could offer her career wise.It was in no way a great love affair and she told me as much.

Reality bit hard when ex discovers his other woman has deliberately become pregnant at the age of 44 in order to ensure she got what she wanted form him, and she had three small children he had not even met.

At that stage thereiwas not much hope of repairing the marriage in any satisfactory way. When affair became public he turned on me and rewrote marriage history(just as described in earlier post in textbook manner)

To save face and career he is forced to marry other woman and she begins to show her true colors. He abandons own children.
He does other things to affect the well being of his former family...unbelievable things.
Within a short itme he regrets it but damage is done.

More than a little discomfort (Marcus) ensues for all concerned, it is lifelong damage as a consequence of infidelity.
How the damage is dealt with is another topic, but it is permanent.

It is so easy to look back and pinpoint things which if picked up earlier may have enabled a different outcome. The fact is that when living in the relationship there is so much going on in everyday life that things are not so clear. At that stage the knowledge that the person you are with is trustworthy and committed is the backbone of keeping going when things are a bit tough.

You do not expect someone to abandon all loyalty and lack the integrity to see out the difficult times. If there are not obvious signs like constant fights, addictionso violence r other incompatibility then how would you determine the other person is so unhappy? You don't, because they are usually not that unhappy at all. That is just a justification for when they have let themselves down with infidelity.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 12, 2008 12:24 AM

jenjen.....you must take charge of your choices
"I didn't choose to be with a man like this"

I am sorry , I don't understand, were you forced into marriage?

It seems everyone was forced into their marriage and clearly it was the other parners fault that the marriage ended.

I have heard the excuse(just today) "I was young and I made bad choices"

"Now I am older, single and still making bad choices "

This tells me something.

Posted by: amodnar at May 11, 2008 11:55 PM

Seems that some of the bloggers here have had their own cheating experience with each other ?
I casually picked throught he posts and noticed that there seems to be some connection ? between a number of you,some un subtle hints at meetings and perhaps betrayment of confidance ?

Posted by: amodnar at May 11, 2008 11:50 PM

Ninaschen: I"ve got a moment now to reply, while I'm physically resting after 2.1/4 hours of especially demanding tennis. Only 4 there because of Mothers Day, so no waiting to play again, after each 8 games. Just squeezed 32 into the time, plus a 7-min cuppa after the 16th.

My calves and ankles are complaining a bit for once, because as the weakest player of us 4, I was trying to play beyond my ability continuously all evening, including running for balls I'd usually let past.

So is my left wrist. I'm left-handed, but after polio weakened my left side in my teens, I had to change hands. This year I'm saving myself from having to run as far by using my left hand sometimes, and it's not up to strength yet.

Your reply ma'am: It seems to me that when you have the time, you try to keep a motherly eye on the blogs, and make sure that all the behaviour there comes up to your own personal standards, as well as RSVP's. A self-imposed civic duty, I guess, like noblesse oblige. That is all.

FP: I valued your recent contribution. Like Bob's and Marcus's this arvo, I thought it was almost brim-full of good stuff.

We'll all always disagree about fine details like theoretical vs. practical viewpoints. And different people will react differently to the same negative behaviour from their spouse. That's good to realise.

I'm finding this blog very valuable for sorting out my own values on this subject, and I'm grateful that we have different people espousing different viewpoints here, and arguing them passionately.

We're all lucky to have access to all these differing but personally-valid ideas. Early customer to visit, so gotta snore. Seeyez.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 11, 2008 11:41 PM

Femalepersuasion,
I imagine that most of the ladies (and men)who have been cheated on, had no idea their partners WERE going to cheat on them.
What I got out of both Lynath and Jenjen's (and others) posts is that they only found out after the fact.
Which is why people whose partners' cheat, often feel as if the bottom has dropped out of their world!

I can see your point of view, IF it is the case that someone forms a relationship with someone who cheated on their previous partner, to be with them.
So if he/she cheated on their wife/husband with whom they might have had children and/or a long history together, with you and then they subsequently cheat on you, you can hardly say you didn't know what to expect!

But in most long-term relationships, the couple have been together a long time and have established a lot of trust together, so it is hardly surprising that one partner feels devastated and betrayed, and that they never saw it coming.

It is so much easier to be wiser after the event.

Marcus, you often give what appears to be logical arguments, in your attempts to justify your beliefs.
But you have the right to believe what ever you like, you don't have to defend and explain yourself to any of us!

The thing that is missing from your posts, Marcus, is empathy and compassion. There is no indication that you have ever felt so strongly for another human being, that your "love" or feelings have clouded your beliefs or your "logical" judgment.
Marcus, you can't pass judgement on other people's experiences or feelings about their experiences, because you were not there. You did not live their experience and their pain is uniquely their's.

You describe having been cheated on in the past, but not in a way that indicates that you have ever experienced any of the gut-wrenching agony and devastation that comes from feeling as if your whole life has just ended.
The hurt that comes from being betrayed by somone you were willing to lay down your own life for, if necessary.

Of course, you may have once experienced this kind of pain and dealt with it by building a impenetrable wall around your emotions, so that no one can ever get through to your heart again.
You certainly wouldn't be the first person to do this.
It would then be possible to sneer at someone else's "weakness", because you know that you will never have to go there again

Either way, it appears that none of those women who cheated on you, had ever touched your heart so deeply, that you felt absolutely "gutted" by their loss.

It is much harder to be "logical" about those of life's experiences that cause hurt and pain for other people, if you have previously experienced deep hurt and pain yourself.

Posted by: amberlight58 at May 11, 2008 11:30 PM

FP, l guess sometimes people grow apart and whilst that is not, in my opinion, a valid excuse to stray, seems to be common.
I think at the end of the day if one is to stray for whatever reason, have the guts and decency to get out of your bad relationship.
Some lack in the gut department...unfortunately so.

Others can be quite charming and lovely, but have an innate need to seek greener pastures, someone better, whatever.

Sad that this is so, but there you go......K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 11, 2008 9:44 PM

FP, I didn't choose to be with a man like this. Went I met him at 19 , and three years later married him, I had no idea he would have some sort of mid life crisis/lobotomy at 39. So it is not a matter of me taking ownership of my relationship choices. Although come to think of it that is exactly what I did when I found out what a dishonest person he had become. And I didnt feel betrayed I WAS betrayed.But no issues here, I know there are plenty of decent and honest men out there.

Posted by: jenjen57 at May 11, 2008 9:33 PM

Marcus, if I read something that uses consistent logic, is broad and compassionate from you on a social and ethical issue I will be very suprised.

Posted by: waterbombe at May 11, 2008 9:12 PM

Maybe it would be beneficial to ask yourself why you chose to be with a man like this in the first place. Take ownership of your own relationship choices.

Posted by: femalepersuasion at May 11, 2008 9:08 PM

Posted by: femalepersuasion at May 11, 2008 7:23 PM
In my recent "editing" or "highlighting" of part of your post I only brought attention to the part I disagreed with the most.Personally I thought all of it to be what I call psychobabble. I don't need counselling to understand why I was the victim of an unfaithful partner, my ex husband admitted to me that for him, it was all about ego, to prove to himself he could still bed other women. I listened, and then turfed him out. Simple.

Posted by: jenjen57 at May 11, 2008 8:35 PM

TW - I too wish you well with your new friend.

I see you have addressed most bloggers who commented on or to you in recent days. But you haven't answered my question on May 8, 2008 at 9:59am. Care to?

Posted by: ninaschen at May 11, 2008 8:27 PM

Posts are often dissected and then commented on by highlighting individual sentences in italics.....but for what purpose?...the true meaning is lost..I believe it is called "editing" often as an attempt by an individual to disown their own issues in the form of projection...this detracts from the meaning of the entire post .

The message in my post has been taken out of context. I am very sorry if any one has felt betrayed by a partner..but if you have I can only suggest counselling if you were unable to understand why it happened, especially if you are still clueless to the cause & still feel aggrieved and dont want this dynamic to happen again.
Someone is not listening in these relationship scenarios...maybe it is the betrayer...maybe it is the betrayed . Usually it is both/

There are exceptions of course, for instance if one becomes involved unknowingly with a sociopath...but these are rare.

To answer your question Aunty K......its usually because of communication..especially lack of emotional communication..It is often easier for some to start with someone new and fun, rather than confront intimacy and painful emotions. Sometimes it is just a case of continually avoiding intimacy on a subconscious level......and the cycle continues without awareness.

Posted by: femalepersuasion at May 11, 2008 7:23 PM

FemaleP.@2.52 pm that was an awesome post.
Lynath and the other posters I am so glad that never happened to me, what you Ladies have gone through, there but through the grace of God go I
OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 11, 2008 5:58 PM

FP an interesting post, and one l would like to address.
Fidelity being the mother of all boundaries is a good comment, and one that is probably the cornerstone of most if not all marriages, initially.
However, when things sour, for whatever reason, why is it that confronting that is so hard, and yet straying with another is done with comparative ease?......
There is also the respect or lack thereof, of the one being cheated on....As well as those also caught up, eg; children.

A very emotive subject this one.
I think that monogamy is the expectation of most who enter in a relationship, be it a de facto or marriage. That things do go wrong is sad, however my experience was that it was not the end of my world...................K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 11, 2008 4:57 PM

Jenhi

Strange that you should mention contacting our ex's as I did just that today, the main reason, being to find out about cooking a roast leg of lamb I had bought. We discussed many things apart from the lamb roast, my daughter was visiting her at the time as well so that was really good.

Posted by: virgil at May 11, 2008 4:45 PM

Thelynathsafary May 10, 2008 3:02 PM

As you obliquely acknowledge monogamy is a myth and not just with humans but generally with animals. Along with the other vertebrates we inherited the basic brain parts which govern reproductive behaviour, from our reptilian concestors. There have been many studies using DNA testing of offspring to verify the monogamy lie and of course behavioural studies and observation add further weight.

In many species, including our own, monagomy is unnatural but handy for bringing up children, pooling resources and limiting the spread of STD's. It is obviously heavily socially/politically supported. In Australia under Federal law though 'adultery' is not a crime or even a ground for divorce. Recent legal precedent allows that marriage may be as much for companionship as sexual and reproductive and for asset transmission. Obviously not all marriges result in children; choice, unfortunate biology or menopause precludes them. Interestingly non consummation as a divorce ground was also removed in the 1976 Family Law overhaul.

You have launched a repetitive series of incomplete, poorly thought through, ethically suspect and almost hysterical motherhood statements about the damage you say infidelity causes. YES, we all know it can be extremely unpleasant. But not always.

There are good examples where hidden marital infidelity, has positive benefits and is desirable therapuetic even. I won't go into case studies but surely the number of infidelities that are discovered that do not result in a separation or divorce and go on to be stronger are evidence that many factors are at work. Bill and Hillary spring to mind.

Infidelity with prostitutes is usually confined to men though an equal number of women affaire, 'subtle whore', toyboy because their sex lives are lacking. These people can still love their partner (though perhaps finding them no longer, or temporarily particularly sexually interesting) their children, pets, inlaws and their home life while having a basic and important need satisfactorily met.

Many affairs are short term and unremarkable and undetected. The damage is done not by the affair but by it's discovery and precipitous action that follows. Sophisticated couples work through these situations and identify the areas where various needs are not being met. There may be no accomodation possible. There may be a decision that the priorities of children, financial, social, employment and other factors mitigate. There may be a return to the status quo. Only a small percentage of anything including relationships will be superlative anyway

Shorter liasons often make a person appreciate their long term partners qualities and reinforce rather than undermine the emotional practical and financial aspects of that relationship. As they quip; "one slice from a cut loaf is never missed"

People and other animals all seek partners with better genes. Fortunately for the species, unfortunately for individuals, this is a most powerful primeval driving force; give your offspring better genes and thus your's the best chance.

As someone who is so concerned with the psychlogical damage inflicted you still have not made a single suggestion for tackling this problem. Perhaps as nature amply demonstrates it should be regarded as almost inevitable and you could counsel about it's liklihood prior to any relationship. Perhaps you should be heavily promoting strategies to conceal affairs. That is the only known way to prevent the ruction their discovery causes.

This would be an ethical position in contrast to the harm you may be doing by frightening people with shrill predictions of calamitous lifetime psychological damage and the automatic and total condemnation of the other parties perhaps eminently justifiable behaviour.

Once again Chris if I read something reasoned, broad and compassionate from you on a social and ethical issue I will be very suprised.

Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 11, 2008 4:19 PM

Posted by: femalepersuasion at May 11, 2008 2:52 PM
"Fear of loss and abandonment tighten our grip on fidelity. Monogamy, it follows, is the marker of our specialness......"

Hmmm, no, I expected my ex to be faithful to me as I was to him, out of respect for me, our marriage and our children, and because I expect nothing less than honesty from him or anyone else I have a relationship with, be it social or professional.

Posted by: jenjen57 at May 11, 2008 3:44 PM

Bob, that's an excellent point. My ex was a lazy bastard who was tight with money...not a good combination. I have never regretted leaving him, even for a second, in the 20 years I have been divorced from him.

I think Lynath's ex was a nice guy, though, and that was her point..if someone you love cheats on you, that is devastating. You cannot understand why it happened. It's a very different situation to what seems to have happened to most people here where the marriage has been shaky, and then one partner cheated. I mean, you are still shocked, but not stunned. I think Lynath was shocked AND stunned. That must be awful.

Posted by: waterbombe at May 11, 2008 3:20 PM

The moment two people become a couple, they begin to deal with boundaries-what is in and what is out. You choose one among all others, then draw lines around the blissful union.

We intuit how often we see each other; sift through our respective friendships and decide how important they're allowed to be now we have each other. We sort out ex-lovers-do we know about them, talk about them, see them ?

The mother of all boundaries, the reigning queen, is fidelity, for she more than any other confirms our union.So entrenched is our faith in momogamy that most couples rarely broach the subject openly. They have no need to discuss what they consider to be a given with modern marriage promising us that there is one person out there with whom all this is possible if we can just find him/her.The focus is always on the object of our love, not on our capacity to love. The isolating conditions of modern life amplify the rambling insecurity that hides in the background of our romantic possessiveness. Fear of loss and abandonment tighten our grip on fidelity. Monogamy, it follows, is the marker of our specialness-I have been chosen and others renounced. when you turn your back on other loves, you confirm my uniqueness;when you wander my importance is shattered.

Relationships are imperfect. Westart with a desire for oneness, then discover our differences. We fight. We withdraw.We blame our partners for failing to make us whole. We look elsewhere. We lay the blame elsewhere, rather than looking within and owning our own part in the breakdown of the relationship.

What is cheating anyway... a label that possibly describes the escape from a partner we can no longer grow with..or talk to..or understand? If someone is that desperate to get away from you..let them go with grace, and ask yourselves why they resorted to that rather than try and discuss their unhappiness with you.

Love is anchored in acceptance. Look within and there will be your answer.

Posted by: femalepersuasion at May 11, 2008 2:52 PM

Lynath,

You are obviously not reading my posts very well.......the issue with my ex occurred 18 years ago.....I dont need support, do not have low self esteem....nor hold a never ending grudge. I observed that I realised over the years that I was not exactly the best husband...not a lousy husband, but I could have done a lot better.

I have NOT (again) condoned cheating, merely put forward a point of view that I can reasons why it happens....there are 2 sides to every story.

As for your well wishing for my future happiness...I am taking the approach that you are being sincere rather than sarcastic; so I thank you for that. Unfortunately, I hardly need your best as I am extremely happy and have been for a number of years....pretty much ever since I came to the realisation that I had more than my share of fault in the breakdown in my marriage; and accepted that. As for my ex...that is her issue to sort....I hope that she has been as successful.

The reason I reacted to both yourself and Stoic was because I saw your views basically calling my ex (a good, decent and honest woman who made 1 error in judgement) as a low-life and scum. You may very well think that, and you are welcome to your opinions, but think carefully before you express them because there are plenty of people that leave relationships that donr carry anger, and still have a good opinion of their ex, regardless of the circumstances or that breakdown in their relationship.

Finally....god, spare us the "experts", psychologists, therapists, quasi-psychologists etc..... No-one is responsible for our happiness but ourselves (plagerised from another psychologist-type) so......if the partner was such a bastard/bitch; why the hell are you so upset they are gone?

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 11, 2008 1:20 PM

What about cheating yourself? I think many people cheat themselves out of all sorts of things. Posted by: woodnwine at May 11, 2008 9:07 AM

The ones who delude themselves into thinking that they are the ones who are always hardly done by?

Posted by: waterlily58 at May 11, 2008 12:26 PM

Posted by: oohlala2 at May 10, 2008 1:55 PM
I tried your recipie last night.
I suggest using cats (registered or unregistered) instead of crocodile. It becomes much more environmentally friendly. The Lort Smith home and Cat Protection Society had plenty and didn't ask many questions. Save their guts. It takes about 2 dozen and they must be cooked 'on the bone' with a stone separate from the rest of the ingredients. Use enough water to cover the carcasses completely initially and gradually reduce. Keep covered to maintain the temp. As I didn't have a second copper I used a cut down 44.
Domestic cat gut contents unfortunately usually include small native marsupials, birds and reptiles and their own gut contents, which add more vitamins. When the stone softens add the guts and cook for a few more minutes.
Combine the two into the 44 and cook a further 15 to 20 minutes on low heat.
Season to taste.
Cheers. Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 11, 2008 12:22 PM

Jen, l was specifically supporting TLD on her views in regards to cheating. As you would have seen by my post, l have the same view on that.
Nothing in this world will make me change that view, challenged or not. That is one of my core opinions, for want of a better term. We all have them.

Certainly there are times when our beliefs and thoughts can be influenced and changed with a different perspective / view.
I am not disputing that at all. Just not on this topic, not for me anyway.......K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 11, 2008 11:49 AM

istj: thank you very much for your very welcome good wishes, especially in the context of what has just passed between us. I am very grateful to you for them.

Waterbombe: you and the doll said you doubted the existence of my tennis-playing.

I'd love to give you the phone numbers of the two people who host my tennis on Tuesday and Sunday nights respectively, so you can check me out, but as I'd hoped, I used my last stamp at 3am last night. So now that I have two unusually excellent prospects at once, I hope not to need to buy another RSVP book of stamps, at least for a while.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 11, 2008 11:46 AM

Hi again. Another look this morning, and my offending Spice piece has now gone, so hopefully we can all move on, some time.

Jenhi: My ex won't have anything to do with me since our divorce 14 years ago, but I still mail her a sincere thank you card each Mothers Day.

We did have a good thing going for a while, as she told the daughter who was unhappy about taking our goodbye photo together, standing arm in arm in front of the house where we'd lived for 20 progressively separate years. A wonderful thing going, I'd thought, for our first 15 years.

And produced some children that we're separately enormously proud of. And take turns visiting.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 11, 2008 11:28 AM

TW...re-read your post in Spice things up and you will see that the offensive comment "has" been removed...The topic was how to spice things up and a shower, or bath, together is one way to do that...so was not an unnecessary part of my post...a night out for dinner usually begins with the shower....for most of us anyways.
Good luck with your new beau too.
Jenniferhi at 8.21....lovely post and said it for me too. It's amazing how easyily a person can twist sincere messages/opinions to suit themselves.
Happy Mother's Day to all, including the dad's who do so much mothering too:))

Posted by: istj54 at May 11, 2008 10:44 AM

What about cheating yourself? I think many people cheat themselves out of all sorts of things.

Posted by: woodnwine at May 11, 2008 9:07 AM

No more will come from me either. Since so many seem to think this is some kind of personal attack on Lynath and I did not mean it like that at all. My stuff is a response to what is written - if the writer puts it out there, to me they welcome comment.

Kaz you said about "Sticking to your beliefs" and don't get me wrong I'm all for that but I'm also all for challenging our beliefs. (Think I've been challenged on this blog. Lol!) We have to keep pushing the boundaries. Pushing ourselves. Taking risks.
Get out of comfort zone. If nothing changes -nothing changes.

Life is an adventure, a rollercoaster of a ride. I want to experience so much. And so far there has been great stuff and of course the bad/sad stuff. It all makes us who we are. I so look forward to the next part of the journey. Finding that special connection with someone again, but enjoying the new people entering my life (and learning what they have to share) thus expanding me.

RSVP has been a fabulous part of the journey for me. I now have 2 very close friends who I believe will be lifelong friends plus others who have made contact even via these blogs. In the most part I've had hardly any 'weird/strange' type guys contact me, like I hear about from some of the writers. I suppose I use my gut feelings a lot and just shoot that 'No thanks" reply back.

Geez, I'm going off on a bit of a tangent here - but that can be me. Lol! Just waiting for my kids to wake up. One has riden into town to get fresh crossants I think for brekky. Yum. Oh, he's home, better go.

Have a great day everyone and to all the mums - hope you get spoiled today. And to all the ex's - how bout sending a message to the mother of your children. Hopefully you can still remember the love you once shared back when your children were conceived and born. Ahhh, memories!

A little ditty my mum used to always say on Mothers day - "Don't forget your father on Mothers day, If it wasn't for your father, your mother wouldn't be a mother, so don't forget your father on Mothers Day" And it used to get reversed on Fathers day. Yes memories....Aargh!!!!!!!! Remember being confused as a kid. Were we meant to be buying Dad a present too? Lol!!!!!!!!!!

Bye all.

Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at May 11, 2008 8:21 AM

Hi all. Just back from a few days' work, and then the movie that I was going to see last weekend.

It was excellent - funny and heart-warming "Forgetting Sarah Marshall." Not Marcus at all. (Who could forget him, while he can still type? No-one, he hopes.) BTW, it was far too rude for a lot of my recent detractors - had an MA15+ rating for blue language, simulated sex scenes and nudity.

Have just tonight caught up on the blogs during my absence, and have a few things to say.

1) I apologise again for the sexual specificity of my roundly-criticised attempt at a joke, late in the Spice blog.

Only Marcus at 2.35am on the 8th got it right - I'd been speaking metaphorically, with no intention of referring to istj's own actual current or past love life, only the hypothetical scenario she'd been describing.

I'd taken her comment that although she'd changed her name, she still smelt as sweet, together with her totally-unnecessary mention in her previous sentence about the need to shower afterwards (surely TOO MUCH INFORMATION), and I'd combined the two thoughts into what I thought was a harmless smutty joke.

When I saw that third parties had taken it to be a grubby personal gibe at istj, and therefore too rude for these hallowed halls, I apologised to her and them - and also invited Karina to go back and recheck it, and if she also took it the way it hadn't been intended, on her second reading, to chop it. Which I see tonight she hasn't.

................................................................

2) I was most interested to see what then followed. I was told in my absence a lot of things about myself that I need to know, because youall needed to say them.

So my error in judgment has been very useful to me, to that extent at least.

I'll respond briefly to some of the main points:

3) Perth at 10.50pm on May 8: Hi doll! You can't resist me, can you? No wonder, after all that I did for your popularity that time. But I'll put you right on a couple of minor points.

I'm size XL, not 2XL, and no way retired - still working at least 50 hours a week, because I tried the pension for 6 months in 2000, and found I needed a lot more than that for a decent lifestyle. Now earn too much for the pension, but not enough to be comfortable.

And my white Laser wagon isn't 30 - they only started making Laser wagons in 1989 or '90, and mine's a 91 model. So it's only 17, and only got 350,000ks on the clock. Should get another 3 years out of it, at least, before it gets me $50 at the wrecker.

I'm proud that I don't need a flash new car to pull worthwhile chicks, impress fair-dinkum customers or bolster my own self-esteem.

Having an old small car is part of my philosophy of using no more of the world's resources than necessary. And in 1989 I did 275km in 2 hours at 30 miles to the gallon in the my previous similar but smaller-motored 1985 model Mazda 323. (Westward from Hay on Bathurst day - not a cop in sight. Or other traffic - all home watching the motor racing.)

Sorry about that technical stuff, girls - it was just for Perth, and blokes dig that stuff.

..................................................................

............................................................

5) Perth (ibid) ".... where would you find all these 'women' he is supposedly dating?"

Derrr. In RSVP, doll. Every time I log on, they show me about 8 on my home page. Three times a week their Cupid service shows me another 8 or 10. And once a month I skim everyone in my demographic who's had any contact in the previous month or so, to catch those not included above.

Any that I really like the sound of, I kiss straight away, and I've still got at least another 50 less-immediately-attracting 'maybes' stashed in my Favourites file, that I haven't had time to get round to yet.

Or sometimes they contact me, (last one 2 weeks ago) in which case I nearly always offer them one date out of chivalry. Where they can decide if they think we're anyway near a match, before I tell them what I think, after a couple of hours of continuous chat.

When we first meet, sometimes she doesn't fancy me, or she thinks that after an expensive divorce and then going broke 5 years later, both in the 90s. I'm not yet rich enough for her. And very often I don't fancy her. You expect that, for Eros' sake!

The other first dates lead to a second date, once we have decided together at the end of the first date, that we BOTH want to meet again. (Takes two �.) Then more dates, till we decide it's not going anywhere, so not to keep seeing one another.

Or we decide to keep in touch, but just as dear friends. I've collected quite a few of those along the way, and had one here at sunset yesterday, for coffee and a chookie drumstick on her way home from work. Too busy to stay for a full meal, she said.

................................................................

6) I've been following the on-topic posts in this blog, and have to say that my regard for TLD has gone up several more notches.

If I had more than one stamp left at the moment, I'd use it on a private email of support to her. Saving up for my next book of stamps in the meantime.

..............................................................

I took a big step up in my life last weekend, including meeting someone rather wonderful at our Monday holiday picnic for two on Coochie Island. So I'll be spending less time typing here,

Just looked, and it's taken me nearly 2.1/2 hours to type this longish post. Hard to justify so much time for so little output, especially considering how few will wade through it. Seeyez all again, much later.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 11, 2008 2:59 AM

oooh Virgil, you are getting very fired up....good on you !!!! I tend to believe you are either married or you are not, either in a relationship or you are not. Simple as that, it's all about trust, not stealing from a relationship and breaking a trust and a lot of times putting the partner in danger. Nope, don't want to hear the excuses, loveless marriage, etc., etc., boo hoo, get over it, fix it or leave and please don't talk about your ex and name your ex on a public forum. I think we all forget at times, we are the sum of many things, somebody's daughter/son/brother/sister/partner/wife/husband/mother/father/friend. None of us are alone we all have a part in someone elses life and we need to respect that and cherish it. Also there are usually children involved and the way you conduct yourselves shapes the rest of their lives. Egos aside I think adults need to get real and stop behaving badly and then maybe teenagers won't behave badly at times either. Good on you Virgil for putting the male point of view, keep doing it, it is needed.

Posted by: iaminperth at May 10, 2008 9:18 PM

OohLaLa2...should OohLaLa1 be cooking that soup in a croc pot?

Posted by: istj54 at May 10, 2008 7:41 PM

...am I a bitter angry shrew who deserved to have it happen or am I a tragic and pathetic creature who lost love and can't move on?
Are you two ganging up to try to make me appear a little unstable to scare off the men in order to get rid of some of the competition on RSVP?...these are "your" words lynathdiary...not mine and not jennifer's...you have called yourself all of these things and are garnering support from others by implying that we said them about you. we have both written with understanding and sympathy for your experiences...we have but added some other input...obviously not wanted...and no more will come from me.
You can reread my posts to you and see if I have previously said anything untoward to you...I doubt it...but you turn around and nastily say that I am jealous...I don't think so...self-righteous, judgemental people leave me cold.

Posted by: istj54 at May 10, 2008 7:22 PM

Lynath

I have never been cheated on, neither have I ever cheated on anyone.

I suspect most people who have made negative comments to your postings never have also.

I am trusting to a point, with most people I come into contact with, but completely trusting to those I am intimate with.

As Marcus has often said, sex is different for men and women, but for a woman to have sex with another man, is the ultimate act of betrayal.

For a man to have sex with a woman that is not his partner is also the ultimate act of betrayal.

Those that use fine words, and clever arguments to justify these betrayals are those that facilitate betrayal and cheating.

I think we all here have had the opportunity to cheat on our partners, the strong, the brave and courageous among us have said no.

The weak, self serving gutless wonders among us will think about our acts of betrayals on our death beds, then die.

Posted by: virgil at May 10, 2008 6:42 PM

Hi Lynath,
I can't understand my self why people think it's okay to accuse you of being bitter, or stuck in the past, just because you have explained just how the experience of being cheated on made you feel.
As I have have said previously, I'm not sure if my ex cheated on me (well he has never admitted he did!) so I don't really know how it would feel to have loved somebody so much and be so totally betrayed by them in that way.
However, I do know how it feels to have your marital history so totally re-written that it is unrecognisable, such as in my ex's case whereupon getting a new partner, he had to totally re-write our relationship, with me being in the role of the "unstable" and "psycho" ex-wife, to justify the breakdown of our relationship.
Very hurtful, to say the least!

I have not read of any bitterness in your posts, just a quiet explanation of how it feels to be betrayed and how much it hurts.
I really wonder at the motives of those who are villifying you.
Are they doing it because THEY feel uncomfortable?
Well, it is bloody uncomfortable to read adults writing like bullying children in a playground, "Hah Ha! Look she is crying! Let's all laugh at her!"
Rather than them seeing your post as just a very sad experience that you had to survive and live through, and have come out of the other side a stronger and wiser person.

Yes, other people may also have been cheated on and not taken it so personally, but I would think the amount of hurt someone experiences, would be comensurate with how much you cared about and loved the other person.
If your marriage was in its death throws or you weren't all that comitted anyway, then it might still hurt a bit, but obviously wouldn't hurt near as much as it would, if you thought you were in a loving and comitted marriage and your world completely fell apart!
I agree with you entirely. There may be good reasons why people cheat, there are also reasons why people murder, but it doesn't make it right.

Posted by: amberlight58 at May 10, 2008 6:41 PM

Cheating is breaking the rules. When you open a pack of cards, sometimes they contain rules sheets...but we don't really read them as we all know the rules of many of the games. Same for board games. Someone usually has played the game and can explain it to the newbies. The same can be said for relationships. One should probably presume a relationship (not a FWB, not a F buddy...but a bona fide relationship) is monogamous. However, if it isn't, then the rule variation should be discussed so that all players (2 - 6 and over 18 hehe) know the rules and are happy to play by them.

Posted by: kim30s at May 10, 2008 6:38 PM

Just kidding. He wasn't a cheetah, just a stray cad.

Posted by: bunburyist at May 10, 2008 6:26 PM

I can see Notgodsgifts point in his admission that he was not the best husband, I too would admit to also falling short in that area.

Something maybe NGG has not mentioned is the massive cultural shift from the Time he and I got married to now.

This may make men, particularly those born and brought up in regional centres such as Broken Hill then moving to Perth, to see a massive cultural change, from the 1970's to the 1990's.

Maybe given that, we can accept we were not really all that bad.

Posted by: virgil at May 10, 2008 6:15 PM

Posted by: oohlala2 at May 10, 2008 7:24 AM
HELLO, is that you Troy, haha!

Posted by: lonelyheart44 at May 10, 2008 5:25 PM

My last lover was a cheetah but I could always tell when he was lion.

Posted by: bunburyist at May 10, 2008 5:06 PM

TLD you have written some very relevant points, the ultimate, in my opinion, is in sticking to your beliefs regarding infidelity in a relationship.
Your views are your own and no one can effectively deride them if they are yours.

Some may question, or indeed criticise your thoughts on the matter, however l think you may find that there are many who would agree that infidelity for whatever reason is not an acceptable practice, particularly if you are the one who has been betrayed by a partner / husband / wife/ .

To those who do cheat........... you get what you deserve in terms of other peoples opinions of you.......the lower the better................
If you can't stand to be in a relationship, have the goddamn guts to get out of it before you inevitably hurt those you supposedly love, be they children, your partner whoever..........and of course l mean both sexes here.......................K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 10, 2008 4:55 PM

Lynath - another excellent and thoughtful post . I have not always agreed with some of your thoughts in other blogs but I do sincerely admire your courage to perservere with this blog in the face of the constant denigration. Denigration from people who are mizzling from behind hidden profiles in same cases.

As far as this particular topic goes, no twilight zone here. I can identify with everything you have written 110 %. Perhaps only those who have been in the same boat can truly understand the damage some people do to others with sleazy, immoral, and selfish behaviour.And those that have not can never truly understand, although they may have strong views one way or the other.

I am sure there are also plenty of lurkers reading the blogs who will no doubt also be able to identify with your views here, and will be sitting there nodding their heads that there are others who "get it" about this whole issue of moral dishonesty.

Posted by: jenjen57 at May 10, 2008 4:02 PM

This blog is supposedly here to discuss infidelity and what it is all about.

Affairs are a process with a beginning and an end. There are very well recgnised and documented steps which occur during the process and aftermath of any affair which occurs in the Western world. The steps are repeated in almost identical fashion even down to the actual words spoken no matter who is involved.

There are many reasons for the commencement of affairs, but never any justification. There is a difference between reason or catalyst and the justifications which are made by the cheaters for their behaviour.

Two of the major steps or occurances in the process for the betrayed person when an affair has been discovered are the experience of shock and shortly following a great test of sanity when inevitably the person they have loved and trusted turns on them portraying them as the worst partner in the world and rewriting the history of the whole relationship in order to justify to themselves to anyone who will listen why they were "forced" to go outside the relationship. The abuse and psychological damage done to the betrayed person at that time is very serious. The betrayed person doubts their sanity as they are suddenly accused of all sorts of things their memory tells them is not right. Some of them become suicidal and or severely depressed.

Please keep in mind that these ideas are not the random thoughts of one blogger (me)made up willy nilly. They are documented and validated by many experts in the field worldwide.

Enter notgodsgift and his comment about his realisation that he was equally to blame for his wifes affair because he was a bad husband.
Bells ring...seems like notgodsgift might have been stuck in the phase where it is difficult not to start believing all the lies being told in order for the cheater to justify him or herself. At that point self esteem is so low it is in danger of affecting the rest of the person life. That is when the betrayed partner needs to have the reality of what has happened pointed out so that they can regain sanity/reality and start to recover properly.
It therefore came as a suprise to me that NGG bit the hand of friendship from Stoic and then the empathy and attempt to maybe relieve him of those thoughts about himself (as someone once did for me)

He then went on to join in with a person blatantly looking for an affair to deride me for my trouble.He was nasty to Stoic. Even if he didn't want the comments there was no need for rudeness in response to kindness.

Since then I have been called insensitive, sour, unattractive, insane, a person with issues, bitter, unable to keep a man etc etc. I do wonder why people(and women in particular) feel justified in making attacks on personal appearance or character instead of the subject at hand. It usually only because they are unable to comprehend or think at any deeper level.

The comments made by Jennifer with her question marks(who I find pleasant and she knows this too) I felt were made in order to discredit me as though I am not quite right mentally either bitter or tragic and therefore views invalid.
Meanwhile istj you tried to say that because I have the integrity to want to stick to any agreements I make I must be jealous and possessive.

My comment about competition was meant to be humourous, but yes ISTJ I can see you are still jealous. As if three 50 year women would really be plotting on a blog to knock of the competition one by one.

I don't care if men who read the blogs are turned off me by what I have said which is factual based information about the damage of infidelity and cheating. If they are, I would wonder why that might be and best not to meet them anyway.

I am also suprised to think that if I was a tragic figure stuck wallowing in tragedy after years that instead of compassion I received further abuse and derision. A great demonstration of 'blame the victim" mentality.

amodnar, it is sad to agree that your comment is probably accurate here too.

lonelyheart44 thank you so much. I was on my way out last night when I read your words of support and validation. They meant a lot to me.
I was beginning to think I might have strayed into the twilight zone as my posts were causing more people to deny that cheating is damaging.

I will never agree that cheating is acceptable or excusable for any reason.

The comments and childish remarks from people I don't know personally do not bother me. I worked on my self esteem and it is at a good level.
Oohlala1 people like you and Troy?oohlala2 look pretty foolish if they never join in a discussion with anything of substance but are only able to write abusive comments with no basis.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 10, 2008 3:02 PM

OohLaLa1. I know you shared with us your wunnerful soup recipe (Minestrone) so I thought I could return the favour:

True Blue Aussie Soup

One 4 litre cask Olive oil, 3 buckets of cubed freshly caught and killed crocodile, 50 celery ribs sliced , 10 medium onions chopped, 10 cups sliced fresh mushrooms , 10 cups diced tomatoes with the juice, 22 liters chicken stock, 10 small yellow zucchini quartered and sliced, 10 large carrot quartered and sliced, 10 small red pepper finely diced, 24 cloves garlic, 50-60 fresh basil leaves chopped, chopped fresh flat leaf parsley, 30 cups uncooked broad egg noodles, Salt and pepper.
Catch one wild medium to small crocodile, skin and gut, carve off loins and cube, transfer to a large copper boiler, add all ingredients except parsley and egg noodles, bring to a boil, then reduce heat and simmer until vegetables are tender, turn heat back up until soup boils slightly and add dry noodles, cook uncovered, stirring occasionally until noodles are el dente (cooked but firm), serve with a sprinkle of chopped fresh parsley ; the rest of the crocodile should be stored in the freezer and should last 1 month for breakfast, lunch and dinner (separate recipes). Should serve the whole Bar of the Wallaby Hotel, Urandangerie. Note: Crocodile guts often contain the remains of wild animals, dogs and indigenes- best to bury rather than put in recycle bin.

Now don't CHEAT on the ingredients. That would be CHEATING. And this blog is all against CHEATING.

Posted by: oohlala2 at May 10, 2008 1:55 PM

There are also those who just live for the thrill of the chase and thrive on the highs of their victories.
Posted by: waterlily58 at May 10, 2008 11:07 AM

That is exactly the "excuse" my ex husband offered for his errant behaviour.....he said he could never just be friends with a woman, he always had to see if he could get to sleep with her........all just a big game for him........

Posted by: jenjen57 at May 10, 2008 1:21 PM

Seen on a panel van:

Sex Therapist, apply within

Posted by: virgil at May 10, 2008 12:29 PM

Junebaby is that the same price for everything? you do. you tell us lots of things here that maybe we dont want to know about. Aussies they say too much information. Bit like the Timewarp. who wants to know all that personal stuff. is not nice to hear.

Posted by: oohlala1 at May 10, 2008 11:44 AM

Ciao to oohlala2. You are very clever and funny person. You male or female eh? That diary lady no competition for istj54 and jenniferhi. she lack the empathy that those one4s have. maybe also the beauty and intelligence. istj54 so funny too. dont you think. Is good to see her back here.

My new man he cheats on me. I meet him in January when I first come here and now he long gone. Good fun for a while but no more. He like the younger blond than me. bet you she cant make the soup like I can oldergent.
How do I feel about it I dont know yet. early days but feel somehow very empty and sad.
will put back my profile soon when that feeling is gone.

Posted by: oohlala1 at May 10, 2008 11:41 AM

Like many others on this site, I am no Therapist, nor do I make myself out to be one. I do, however, think that it would be considered fairly narrow-minded, to maintain that there are only 2 reasons for cheating. We have discussed several reasons on this blog and I am sure there have been many other reasons thrashed out with many other counsellors and therapists across the country: promiscuity, emotional disorders, lousy marriages, loveless marriages just to name a few. What about boredom, financial difficulties, alcoholism or drunkeness, drug use, poor quality parenting as a child, lack of character to live up to comittments, fear of abuse and search for stability, and homosexuality. There are also those who just live for the thrill of the chase and thrive on the highs of their victories.

There would also be thousands of excuses offered on behalf of cheaters, too.

As a qualified and practising Therapist, it seems strange that Beep has only heard 2 reasons for cheating. Maybe he needs some more time on the blogs to add to his case study load.

I am not condoning cheating. My ex-husband cheated on me - with his boyfriend! I could accept him being gay or bi. I could not accept the deceiptful lies, or the enormous health risks he had exposed myself and our boys to.

It does not boil down to daring to go all the way or the Hollywood trends. Most people that I know are far too busy in their homes, marriages, children, jobs etc to spend too much time creating fairy worlds around mags and tv. The Beep may have a very small practise, in a very sheltered community, in a very black and white world. Lucky man!
.

Posted by: waterlily58 at May 10, 2008 11:07 AM

The bleep

Something here doesnt gel with me. Firstly, your post did not seem to have the same depth one might expect from writings of a professional in the field, more street level anecdotal.

Secondly, your profile gives me the impresssion you may be a professional musician, travelling the world playing your guitar.

My intuition suggests this post in the wrong blog, as my intuition is hinting there might be some imagination at work here.

Posted by: virgil at May 10, 2008 10:19 AM

maybe bleep is getting away from the obvious reasons for cheating, the dishonesty, cowardice, loss of trust, hurting people...
maybe bleep is looking at the underlying reasons, the person is unhappy and there is no love and communication in the relationship....soooo instead of being honest, brave and communicate with your troubled partner, you go out and cheat...looking for love and happiness!!! be a coward and cheat...there you have it in a nutshell!!!!
That will cost you $200.00 per hour!!! have a lovely day all.....jewelstherapyservice.....

Posted by: junebaby57 at May 10, 2008 8:37 AM

istj54 and jenen: The way you think may spell Karma for your own way of thinking, and then you will understand one day where Lynath is coming from.

Posted by: lonelyheart44 at May 9, 2008 7:54 PM

Wishing bad things upon others can surely also bring on some bad Karma...what a thing to say?...and just because I put out a few thoughts.

Posted by: istj54 at May 10, 2008 8:08 AM

Lynath...you know full well that I was not attacking you, or your views...so no apology here...I was merely putting out some alternative thoughts to maybe give some reasons, not excuses, why some people may stray...and as well know they do...and I didn't know this was a competition...what is the prize, a first date with TW?
I did preface my remarks by saying that I do not condone cheating...but people have chosen to ignore that...What I am really trying to get across is that even if you tell your spouse that you no longer feel love for them and are leaving, it can be just as hurtful and life damaging and as difficult to recover from as cheating...I know about that one as it has happened to me several times..long ago. Sometimes I thought it would have been easier to bear if they said they had met someone else...so there you go...hurt all round...another viewpoint.

Posted by: istj54 at May 10, 2008 7:34 AM

I would have to agree with OohLaLa1

I doubt if Lynath could get a man even if she tried.

Is she really on this site to get a man anyway or to vent her spleen.

Haven't we seen people like her before.

They spew, they spray, then they go away

Posted by: oohlala2 at May 10, 2008 7:24 AM

Lonelyheart44 7.54pm. I totally believe in Karma. It sits quite comfortably in my life. Always has and has constantly been proven. Is a major philosophy for me.

I have great respect for Lynath. She is a wonderful writer. So articulate. So passionate. So driven. I would love to be so assertive. But I have my opinions and perhaps I cannot express them quite so well but I do feel other bloggers maybe agree with what I have tried to say in some way.

The site does not always have to be dominated by all the strong personalities here.

I might only be high school educated but still reached management in my career. Have raised a child with disabilities, and have lots of life skills. And I think pretty good street smarts. Oh, and I will always defend myself and mine.

I don't want anyone to think I have been making a personal attack at Lynath. Most of all Lynath. And I don't think she does really. That is just not my nature.

The Bleep - 5.40pm. Like the other mentions by bloggers I would like to hear your 2 reasons that affairs happen also.
If you are a therapist, your imput would be very interesting.

Oh, "What the Bleep" - Fabulous DVD.

Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at May 10, 2008 12:32 AM

I have never cheated on a partner and don’t think I ever would or could.

Being unfaithful to a partner either emotionally or physically, is dishonest, totally inexcusable., cowardly and selfish . It is not worth the emotional scars it leaves on so many people, not just the innocent partner, but children, family and friends as well.

When you make a commitment to someone, specifically in a marriage, you are making an agreement “til death do us part” and a commitment to monogamy and honesty.

Just because the going gets tough or you are not “in love” anymore is not an excuse to hop into bed with another.

So what are the feeble excuses thebleep ??

Posted by: jenjen57 at May 9, 2008 11:34 PM

bleep...

The dictionary definition is

Cheat:
(someone who) .. acts dishonestly or unfairly in an attempt to gain an advantage.

You're a therapist? Who's worked with couples? Really?

That being the case, I'd like to hear you back up your statement that "Most people think it is all about honesty, that is not the case"..

Posted by: decoratress at May 9, 2008 11:24 PM

Gosh, best l stop watching television and reading magazines, my expectations may be too high......

Seriously???

BTW l never buy mags, and watch television intermittently.....does that mean that my expectations are too low? ..........K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 9, 2008 10:57 PM

thebleep @ 5.40pm...
"As a therapist I have worked with a lots of couples and have found that there are only two reasons why people cheat, neither of which have been mentioned in this blog"

You say you've worked with couples.. so are you a counsellor, bleep?

Why on earth would you say that neither of "the only two reasons for cheating" have been mentioned here.... without going on to say what (in your opinion) those reasons are? Wouldn't that be.. well.. helpful information to share?

You then tell us that it's not "all about honesty".. okaaay.. then perhaps you'd like to enlighten us as to what it IS all about?

As a therapist, your expert opinion would be extremely interesting to all of us..

..I would have thought..?

Posted by: decoratress at May 9, 2008 9:29 PM

Lynathdiaries I read that you think istj54 and jenniferhi are setting out to make you look tragic and unstable to get rid of the competition. I don't think you need their help to do that. Just keep talking yourself.

Posted by: oohlala1 at May 9, 2008 8:25 PM

Hi Bleep@5.40. pm
Ok you have got my curiosity aroused, what are the two reasons. Isn't everyone under 50 influenced too much by TV and the media ei advertising and Hollywood etc.
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 9, 2008 8:01 PM

Lynath: I agree with everthing you say, and how you view things is exactly how I view the marriage arrangement/the contract. It is after all about respect and doing unto others as you would like been done to you.
istj54 and jenniferhi: You are no where on the same level of thinking as Lynath. It's a matter of being in the same situation as Lynath experienced, and maybe you have not been there.
Nothing worse sticking with someone and giving them all that you can give to make it work while the other goes off and plays to the hilt, and leaves the other waiting for the fun to start at home while the other is burning up their energy on someone else. Very selfish.
istj54 and jenen: The way you think may spell Karma for your own way of thinking, and then you will understand one day where Lynath is coming from.

Posted by: lonelyheart44 at May 9, 2008 7:54 PM

Well Lynath - you certainly sound bitter towards me and some of the others. Goodness me - this is an open blog. You write - we interpret - we comment. Simple! My feelings that I write are mine. My interpretation of what is written is what I write. Am I not allowed to agree with someone? And maybe be on a similar wave to that someone. God, no wonder a lot of people are not writing on this subject.

Re your second sentence - I would have no clue who Istj is, there is no visible profile.

As to scaring off men - think you could do that all on your own! Think you and I would be after totally different men anyway. LOL.

I only wish you well on your search. Like I do for all of us on here.

Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at May 9, 2008 5:54 PM

As a therapist I have worked with a lots of couples and have found that there are only two reasons why people cheat, neither of which have been mentioned in this blog. Most people think it is all about honesty, that is not the case. I have found that it is just as common in women as in men, with the exception that men take it all the way whereas women are more aware of consequences. I believe women set their expectations too high due to all the magazines and TV shows influenece. These are my observations and only mine as a result of dealing with a lot of people over the years.

Posted by: thebleep at May 9, 2008 5:40 PM

I've been busy but I want to comment on something from a few days ago. Troy it certainly wasn't me who told TW "no wonder Joan left you"; I remember the comment and thought at the time that was harsh. But should we let it off the hook for his appalling comments because he's 'vulnerable' and had some reverses? Isn't it also possible that the person he directs his comments at may have even worse things happening in their lives (that they haven't spilled onto the blogs) and be even more vulnerable? You're hardly justified in abusing people because you're having a rough time. The person you abuse may be, for all you know, having an even rougher time than you.

ISTJ your comment about "start the evening in the bedroom" was not offensive because it was directed at people generally; its hard for any one individual to justify feeling offended when a comment about sex is general. TW's comment however was not general;

I don't believe TW's stoies about tennis either, iaminperth, and as for the hundreds of first dates with women who are never good enough...that's his misogynism rearing it's ugly head again, I'd say. We hear a lot of that and to all the men on here who think that is justified. I'd say get over yourselves. The world doesn't revolve around guys any more. That does not man it revolves around women. It revolves around men AND women.

I agree with you, Stoic and Lynath, about moral courage...in my workplaces over the years there have been dozens of people having affairs...if things are not good in the marriage people should have the moral courage to say so. There is a chance then of change....but if one of you has an affair, there is no chance of improvement and a very strong chance of everything going down the gurgler.

Posted by: waterbombe at May 9, 2008 5:04 PM

jenniferhi..which line are you taking again.? .am I a bitter angry shrew who deserved to have it happen or am I a tragic and pathetic creature who lost love and can't move on?
Are you two ganging up to try to make me appear a little unstable to scare off the men in order to get rid of some of the competition on RSVP?

You and Istj presume alot I think.

So anyone who writes about a subject or is interested in a subject must be personally affected by the subject?

How do you know I am not involved in this on a professional level?

I have checked my posts again for signs of hysteria and can't see it, just strong opinions that anyone involved in cheating won't like ,or anyone who has not experienced the consequences will not believe. The media for instance ,oftens portrays affairs as glamourous or funny.

I am merely stating what is known about the subject of Infidelity and have mentioned very little of my own circumstances. You have attributed things to me which you cannot possible know.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 9, 2008 4:56 PM

I have trouble signing in.........lets hope !

Cheating is common place in my country (Finland)
Many say they have not been cheated on ..but how would you know?
is that not what cheating is about ?

being secretive,not letting the other person know what you are doing?

maintaining your secure relationship and still have the freedom to have sex with others without loosing your security blanket?

I see some say they have not been cheated on.

That is perhaps a little innocent.......women cheat just like men....probvably more so, I am a young woman , so I should know what my girlfriends do.
It is not just with other people of the opposite sex but often with same sex and all ages, it becomes a fun pursuit to get away with it and becomes a hunger that needs to be met, relationships today are very fragile, because it is so easy to meet with someone who desires you.

Posted by: amodnar at May 9, 2008 4:04 PM

Istj my writing is not all about me. It is a collective of anecdotal evidence from many people on the damage caused by infidelity and affairs. My personal hurt was great, long ago dealt with, leaving a bit of scar tissue which is the permanent damage from the consequences. The end of that relationship was in fact the beginning of the best part of my life so far .

From my writing if you put it in the context of my reply to Marcus you would understand that the mention of a contract was to do with personal integrity. It was nothing to do with jealousy or forcing someone to remain in a relationship. You may have been the jealous, possessive type..I never was and my husband was free to do whatever made him happy in life. I had to power to force him to stay if I had really wanted to( for reasons I cannot disclose) . However I knew that if I did that there would only be a worthless relationship

The marriage contract does not imply that you own the person(although in days gone by that is exactly what it implied for women body and possessions) but surely it implies that you agree to the terms of the contract which I believe are still exclusivity. This does not mean you cannot interact with people in general but just that you intend fidelity towards the person you have married. Marriages are not all about the meringue dress and cake, there is serious stuff behind them. If you cannot agree, then don’t enter the contract.

I don't play games defamationcentral.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 9, 2008 3:32 PM

istj54 12.22pm. Beautifully written. I guess I cannot fully understand the hurt either that shows from Lynaths posts. And she being such a strong, assertive type personality how it seems to me she has not moved on and away from the anger and hurt of it all. Years of research on this subject? Support groups on it? How long do you hold on to it all for?
So she had the wonderful deep, deep love with her ex. Can that ever be attained again?
I think so. No, I believe so! But Lynath can you ever really trust a man again? The way you write I don't think you will be able to. Life's a gamble. Be open to the new.
And remember what you fear -you attract. To me the more you are attached to this with hurt and anger the more you will attract more of the same into your life. Let it go and be open to the new.

Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at May 9, 2008 3:14 PM

The games up Lynath Diaries.

Posted by: defamationcentral at May 9, 2008 2:39 PM

Weakness, cowardliness, disrespect - all of the above perhaps. Who knows exactly?

And telling them makes all the difference. You have told them it is over. You have been honest and up front and respectful of them - as much as you can be in that situation.

Waiting to get a piece of paper signed is not really the point. That is the point where you no longer have to tell them anything, not the point where you finally admit to it.

And if you will pardon the phrase, telling a first date you don't want to see them again is where you have "man up" and be honest despite your misgivings.

And I am not suggesting you don't do that or are not honest with them. It sounds like you do that despite not liking saying no and I certainly respect that.

Posted by: stoic at May 9, 2008 2:14 PM

...agreed Stoic...but many, many people are weak...is it weakness?... and just can't do what we think is the noble thing...it's hard to tell someone that you want out. I find it hard to tell a first date that I don't want to see them again.

If we take this discussion a step further then, really, it makes no difference if you tell them and then leave...you are still married aren't you?...and still culpable.

Posted by: istj54 at May 9, 2008 1:59 PM

istj54@12.22.
you said it in a nut shell. In the second partnership it was a glorius relationship, open exciting, not demanding, generous to a fault. The ownership started on the way down in the lift from the registry office no more than 10 minutes after the marriage ceremony. If I had have know then what was to ensue, I would have walked there and then. People often joke about marriage spoiling a great friendship, sadly it is not always a joke. But despite all the angst during the time we were together neither cheated. After the seperation I did not care what she did, and the time she did sleep with a man, she did not hide the matter, so in my eyes was honest, then honest enough to realise it was a mistake and stopped the affair. Just a one night stand. There is no winner or one solution to the subject, nor do I expect there ever to be one.

One other comment, I have jumped on Marcus several times, but have found him to be consistent in his attitudes and comments, (I make no comment on his quotes and arguments) he has chosen not to marry or father children, from what I can see he has been up front in his relationships, and been more wronged than wrongful. As with all posters on here, if it is the truth. I have said that knowing that he loves to get up the nose of all and can be an arse when he wants to be (and isn't that all the time) lol.
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 9, 2008 12:59 PM

What I am trying to say is that the marriage contract does not automatically give you title to that person…and if that is your perception then I can see a partner feeling stifled by the contract…and maybe want out!
Posted by: istj54 at May 9, 2008 12:22 PM

That is fine ISTJ54, and I agree that no title of ownership is transferred, but in that situation, have the courage and decency to say to their face "you are stifling, domineering bitch/bastard. I want out"

Posted by: stoic at May 9, 2008 12:39 PM

Lynathdiary…I will preface my following screed by saying that I do not condone cheating, have never…far as I know…been cheated on…and so do not understand fully your hurt…but do know that it goes dangerously deep from your writing.
I do know that when I was younger I was extremely jealous and possessive and scared many fine, decent men away because of this very ugly trait. Happily I am no longer like this because as I have aged, and hopefully, grown in wisdom, I know that no one can ever possess, or own, another in any way. We cannot, and should not, ever feel ownership of another man, friend or pet.
From your writing, you seem to consider the marriage contract as some form of sales document that you now own each other and they are to cut off all feeling etc. unless it pertains to you. Do you not think that if this is how many men/women feel about the other when they have entered into this contract the other may start to feel a bit stifled and dare I say, “Owned”?
From observation, just my own, I have seen many men and women let themselves go, in more ways than one, after they have sealed the deal…I could run off all the ways this can happen…but won’t…we all know it does happen…What I am trying to say is that the marriage contract does not automatically give you title to that person…and if that is your perception then I can see a partner feeling stifled by the contract…and maybe want out!

Are you talking to me WnW?...hello back.

Posted by: istj54 at May 9, 2008 12:22 PM

Just thought I'd say hello to you then.

Posted by: woodnwine at May 9, 2008 11:38 AM

So, Marcus, you have been trawling Gloryb have you…watch out for Emerald the most famous Other Woman of all, she is a spider who traps open flies like you with honey then bites…what name have you signed up under?

The agenda over there is not to keep the relationship hidden but rather how to get the person to leave their awful wife(mostly woman on the site). Some of those women have been there for ten years that I know of.

That makes me conclude that the person is the affair and the relationship is the most selfish and self centred of all who uses both partner AND affair partner and makes fools of both. Being someone’s dirty little secret sex provider is not that great a job description I would think.
.
As I am in favour of respect, and honesty and loyalty and integrity I cannot promote strategies to keep affairs hidden. That is too simplistic Marcus and does not take into account that out of the three people involved in an affair only two of them have the full picture and ability to make choices. As an adult do you think that is a fair way to be treated?

If I have given my word to someone in any contract then I am obliged to stick to the rules of the contract. Doing so is important to me. A relationship/ marriage is a contract . Although Adultery is no longer a punishable offence in law (at least in this country) in the US people have successfully sued the other person for Alienation of Affection , and I recall a case here a few years back (not sure of outcome)

I don’t (dammit!)actually see myself having the power to stop - single handedly on a dating blog – behaviour which has always been present in human society “ preventing the harm you say is caused by cheating:, but can’t miss an opportunity to point out what the harm might be.

It is not just me who “says” harm is caused by cheating and that washing basket and hills hoist holds many peoples dirty laundry.

Perhaps Marcus you can confirm whether in the animal kingdom there exists infidelity or just serial monogamy (you know the romantic for a reason(mating) or a season(protection and survival of the young). Some animals do mate for life I believe.

I have nothing against people who prefer the serial monogamy way of life. I have no secret religion based agenda or crusade. My personal preference is for a long term deep and meaningful relationship which create a shared history that creates the fantastic secure bond of love and commitment.

Consequentialists (is that a word) will see that two people (at least one already being in a relationship ) are showing blatant disregard for the wellbeing and happiness and security of the people who love and trust them. Your comment illustrates the selfishness required to engage in an affair.- It’s all about me and my happiness and instant gratification and too bad about everyone else.

It is not just the three immediate people involved in the affair that suffer the consequences.
Even if the affair is kept secretive and hidden it still has consequences. It takes time, energy and money from the primary relationship and often children. It puts the well being of children at great risk. It shatters families when discovered.

Can you explain why, when people are quite free to refuse to commit to long term relationships, or to have as many serial monogamous relationships as they can fit in a lifetime, choose to take the path of self destructiveness .

You argue that monogamy is the root of all evil(pun intended) and yet most involved in cheating still enjoy and want the nice socially accepted concrete path picket fence and hills hoist and family life and the benefits it brings them.

Stability and security is the benefit of the social model of monogamy .

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 9, 2008 11:23 AM

laughsandtalks @ 1.37am...

"lynathishairy...
..A consequentialist will see that two married people becoming lovers is moral because it brings pleasure and happiness to them and no harm is done. This couple decides to keep their affair a secret because they realise its discovery will cause great upset. On a set of logical principles this is also moral- protecting a 3rd parties from possible harm. It is only if the lovers are discovered by a spouse/ partner that any direct harm occurs.
Given the well documented fact that a high percentage of marriages have fidelity issues, monogamy is obviously not a given. Therefore promoting sensible strategies on how to avoid the discovery of inevitable extra marital relationships (as TOW for instance does) helps to prevent the "lifelong damage and destruction" that is caused only by discovery. I will have to assume you are in favour of acknowledging this reality."

(I apologise for the long quote, folks, but thought it needed a second airing... it's a little mouldy itself).

Marcus... you have to be kidding... don't you?
You think humans exist solely on the logical plane? Wow.

Now... if I understand correctly the consequentialist theory you expound:
.. something is only immoral.. if it's found out?
.. in fact, the deceivers are being moral by successfully deceiving their partners...?

Yeah.. right.

Lovely!

So in this 'consequential world', lying is moral & cheating is a perfectly acceptable way to address the wrongs of a monogamous relationship?

No, Marcus, "monogamy is not a given".. it's a goal.. of couples who have entered into an exclusive commitment to each other. Some do, you know.. & stick to it.. happily.

There are no "inevitable extra marital relationships"... for one so quick to jump on others' perceived inaccuracies, Marcus- get your facts straight. In my 24yr marriage there were no affairs, we simply grew apart. "Inevitable" is a very pass/agg insinuation you use to promote your views on monogamy.

You end with.. "I will have to assume you are in favour of acknowledging this reality."

For goodness sake Marcus!
..you of all people should know that assumptions are dangerous.. jumping, as they do, to conclusions based on nothing but your subjective point of view.
I'm surprised at you making one, Marcus, with your 'scientific bent'.... (haha, I rather like that turn of phrase!)
I don't think you can assume that TLD is in favour of acknowledging this (read 'someone else's') reality at all. If she does, she may tell you.. in which case it becomes fact. Until then you can 'assume' anything you want, but it doesn't make it valid or relevant.

..oh, & btw....
Seeing as you're back to name-calling...
..everyone can substitute Markarse, Mycarcass, etc., for each time I've used your name correctly, if they think it warranted.

decoroustress

Posted by: decoratress at May 9, 2008 11:00 AM

Posted by: istj54 at May 9, 2008 7:13 AM

No offence intended. Whilst others on the blogs, having been here longer than myself, may know what gender you are, I do not. As such I referred to you as it. Again, my apologies however I do believe you had a sideways crack at virgil which is uneccesary if you wish to have a crack at the warped one. Why not, he's had a go at everybody at one time or another.
Things said by different bloggers don't come out right or don't occassionally read the way they were intended. Each of us also may respond differently to things said to us or about us. What warped said re: smell, was inappropriate, however something said to him, by WB I think, was also inappropriate.....to my way of thinking however it raised not an eyebrow. In response to warped the comment was made that "no wonder Joan left you" or words to that effect. If one wishes to have a go at somebody do it however comments like this I find contemptable. I have no doubt of the uproar that would have ensued had someone said, to lynath for example, that it's no wonder her ex cheated on her. To me that is offensive but to others maybe not.

Troy

Posted by: troyohboy at May 9, 2008 9:31 AM

Troy...I at no times judged what Virgil had to say...I know he admires the old fella, but many times over the last six months he has consistently made ewwwww remarks to myself and others. I, personally, could care less but I sure can comment on them and so can others. We don't have to ignore them cos he is old...anyways isn't he 72 going on 82...in a timewarp....and Troy I am in no way, shape, or form an IT.
Virgil, I do empathise with people's daily stuff but it is just life. I could get on here and tell all and make you feel sad... so could most people... we all have ups and downs but do not feel the need to air it continually.

Posted by: istj54 at May 9, 2008 7:13 AM

iampert May 8, 2008 10:50 PM

I think you are sinking the slipper here to a bloke already in the stocks.
Warped's verbose, out-there bluster and gauche revelation often precedes him but it shields someone who is also vulnerable and might have had a few reverses lately.

Generally.
I'm sure istj doesn't need any hygiene tips. I read Warped's comment as a badly timed and slightly pissy attempt at send up humour after the comments about roses.

Anyway lets not be too precious, more realistic. A blog femme, I forget who, made the salient comment about womens after sex fragrance taking on the properties of their man. Despite what some men here might think, girls you are not Gynoids and should not shy away from male observation and comment on things to do with sex and sexuality. As I keep saying, male sexuality is just that; it is not an aberration.

Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 9, 2008 2:35 AM

amberlite at May 7, 2008 11:54 PM
I've never cheated on a partner. I've had it done to me several times as I outlined earlier.
I am pragmatic and have had enough relationships (yes from days to 10 years) to have a few insights and a pragmatic, experienced perspective. Not everyone is looking at this from the point of view of a long gone teenage marriage that produced a brace of kids and lasted 28 years or so and sent the discarded partner out into a modern dating landscape only equipped with once used tools that were current 30 or 40 years ago.
Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 9, 2008 1:59 AM

Lynathsishairy May 8, 2008 6:16 PM

Good to see you can still skip down the concrete path, behind the picket fence, with another load of too-long-left in the basket sour washing and hang it on the Hill's hoist for us to see the mouldy bits..

Chris, If you are really interested in preventing the harm you say is caused by cheating perhaps you should be in favour of promoting strategies to keep affairs hidden?

A consequentialist will see that two married people becoming lovers is moral because it brings pleasure and happiness to them and no harm is done. This couple decides to keep their affair a secret because they realise its discovery will cause great upset. On a set of logical principles this is also moral- protecting a 3rd parties from possible harm. It is only if the lovers are discovered by a spouse/ partner that any direct harm occurs.

Given the well documented fact that a high percentage of marriages have fidelity issues, monogamy is obviously not a given. Therefore promoting sensible strategies on how to avoid the discovery of inevitable extra marital relationships (as TOW for instance does) helps to prevent the "lifelong damage and destruction" that is caused only by discovery. I will have to assume you are in favour of acknowledging this reality.

Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 9, 2008 1:37 AM

Thanks Troy

When what I say is challenged, I think about what I have said, and what the person challenging me has said, then decide whether it is worth a serious considered answer or ignoring or straight out attack.

At the time of my initial comment, I felt TW's remark was not worthy of him, and cheap and tacky but giving thought to what he is going through at the moment, I didn't want to criticise.

I feel it is too easy to criticise others before "walking a mile in their shoes".

Posted by: virgil at May 9, 2008 12:20 AM

Perth @ 8.33
Mainly because in the 1st instance there were children involved, he left her and the children (and boyfriend) and walked.
Second time around, trust undone him, she handled the money did all the contracts (No children this time) just the debts she ran up in his name, signed what was shoved under his nose, payments supposedly made that weren't, overpayment of some expenses, all in the 3 years of her cheating with the boyfriend, while he was working to keep her in the style she demanded. Repossesions now the order of the day and debts still to pay. It is no boo hoo fib Perth, I'm just the mate of the poor bastard, who trusted the wrong women.
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 9, 2008 12:10 AM

notgodsgift best wishes for your future happiness, ... .. and mickmontana of course you would not like what I have written as would be expected of one of the 'attached/married' looking for an affair.

My opinions are formed by personal experience and by years of research and observation and discussion in the support group I facilitate.

Jenniferhi I understand that you are saying that affairs happen for many reasons.
My point is that although people should not be forced to remain in unahppy relationships, there is no need for affairs in order to create a reason for leaving.

Your point that maybe the cheater didn't know happiness until the affair does not hold up in my opinion. The relationship would have been just as happy as the affair one ,once. The affair offers excitement and a sexual high and thrill which may appear to have left the long term relationship. It offers attention and typically makes the cheater feel alive again. This can carry on to the point of ending the marriage, or more likely once discovered the betrayed partner ends it.It is well documented that at this stage or within a short time after the affair also ends because once the light of reality shines on the illicit affair the excitement goes and the consequences start to kick in.

Affairs are not real relationships at all, just escapist fantasies involving people with problems. Those in them only appear on their best behaviour with best grooming and dressing in the most romantic settings esciting sex thrown in.
In that world there are no problems no bills no children demanding attention. The marriage partner cannot compete. they represent responsibility and routine.

The majority of people who have betrayed their partners regret their actions very deeply.
Even if they end up with the affair partner they will not be happy because they have failed to address the issues which caused them to go down the affair path. In adition they can never truly trust the person they are now with. If they were both willing to be involved cheating then automatically they are known to be untrustworthy.

Within a short time they will be back in the same situation with responsibility and lack of excitement, but now with the affair partner. . Meanwhile they have paid a high price socially financially and personally.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 8, 2008 11:45 PM

I find TW's comments appalling, but then I have found most of his comments appalling for a very long time, absolutely foul at times. I also find it hard to believe at 72 by his own admission size XXL playing 2-l/2 hours of tennis and where would you find all these 'women' he is supposedly dating, picking up I suppose in a 30 year old ford laser. Also a retired Engineer who is so skint can't get thru the week. I think the whole profile is a sham and I find the man totally offensive and feel no pity at all

Posted by: iaminperth at May 8, 2008 10:50 PM

Posted by: virgil at May 8, 2008 10:28 PM

Cripes virgil, will you tell it to piss off and not make judgements of you. What do you have to prove to it? You have the runs on the board even if you are a soft cock. Still like you but

Troy

Posted by: troyohboy at May 8, 2008 10:44 PM

I think the Duke is saying that he is as appalled as the rest of us, except for Virgil, at TW's crudity and lewdity...but I am more than happy to debate this issue, which TW has said followed on from my comments....which I would not have thought to be offensive to anyone.
Virgil, I think that TW tries far, far too hard...not really admirable...more player to me,

Posted by: istj54 at May 8, 2008 4:44 PM

ISTJ

I suppose I think of the energy level I feel like putting into dating, then hear what TW does, tennis, at that age you must be very fit to play tennis regularly.

To have the energy to be dating frequently, This is not my approach. I am very careful who I speak to, on a regular basis, make good freinds with them, sometimes it is evident from the start that a woman will be more than a friend.

Some things I know, firstly that I will not be with RSVP for 9 or more years, good friends I have made here will be always good friends.

ISTJ I am sorry if my printed reaction to the shower comment was not as harsh as it might have been, I must truly say, I was saddened to see the comment directed at you, I feel it is inappropriate, and maybe it was due to some feeling of give him the benefit of age allowance or something that my reaction was not more critical.

Posted by: virgil at May 8, 2008 10:28 PM

Jen, l understand what you are saying....
However, the concept of cheating, the deception and intent, do not sit with me......
The hurt that is caused is unforgivable, yeah, you get over that with time, however not all of us can be strong there will always be those who find it difficult to get over.

Not criticising your comments there Jen, just my view is all......have read with interest this topic, yes it is an emotional one but also thought provoking........K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 8, 2008 10:12 PM

lynath, you ae so damaged and bitter it is sad. Your belief that you can pass judgement upon others based upon your distorted perceptions is a further confirmation of the deep bitterness you carry within yourself. Your hurt overlays everything you post. Your striking out at those with an opinion other than yours lessons you and the message you ae attempting to convey.
And yeah, get over yourself you sanctimoneous pain in the ass.......ha ha

Troy

Posted by: troyohboy at May 8, 2008 10:11 PM

lynath, you ae so damaged and bitter it is sad. Your belief that you can pass judgement upon others based upon your distorted perceptions is a further confirmation of the deep bitterness you carry within yourself. Your hurt overlays everything you post. Your striking out at those with an opinion other than yours lessons you and the message you ae attempting to convey.
And yeah, get over yourself you sanctimoneous pain in the ass.......ha ha

Troy

Posted by: troyohboy at May 8, 2008 10:11 PM

Stoic - I'm not saying either that they shouldnt do what you are saying. Seems I can't get my points clear - sorry. But feels like people are putting words in my mouth tonight.
I would also say that things may seem like they are working - even to both partners, but then someone else comes along and things change. Affairs can start for heaps of reasons.
Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at May 8, 2008 9:29 PM

And Jen - reading that first line - I didn't mean it to sound so coarse.

It is a genuine question and as you said, the words are not flowing freely tonight so I want to have it clarified :)

Posted by: stoic at May 8, 2008 9:17 PM

jenniferhi - so you get why someone may stray, and I don't think that was ever really in dispute.

But how does that justify not being honest and just admitting things aren't work or they have had enough and that they have met someone else they want to give things a try with?

Posted by: stoic at May 8, 2008 9:12 PM

Just quickly Perth. A settlement can be 70/30 if all children stay with one partner. The partner with the lesser balance then has a big spending spree - dah dah. penniless.
Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at May 8, 2008 9:06 PM

I don't know about holding on to anything given that I have neither cheated nor been cheated on.

I prefer to think of it as having the moral courage and conviction of my beliefs to call out shitty behaviour when I see it.

And before the peanut gallery starts, I hold myself to the very same standard I demand of others. Probably a higher one since I'd consider Seppuku to be the only way to redeem myself for such a lowlife cowardly act.

Oh and I see Andrea Bocelli is touring here again. Highly recommended if you get the opportunity.

Posted by: stoic at May 8, 2008 8:59 PM

Lynath 6.16pm - No you cannot translate what I said to "Obviously they deserved it." I was not saying it in that way at all. As If I would!
I believe we all have traits and only our closest partners or family may know those traits.
An affair may start for many reasons. It can be an escape. Only the parties involved can know the reasons. Maybe the cheater did not know real happiness until he/she had the affair. Who knows. But also if he/she leaves their relationship for the new person, it surely is much, much more than a sexual thing. (In most cases). It is a new relationship. They have connected. So to break up a family to take that direction is major for them too, not just the one being left.
I know this probably sounds like I am defending the cheater and I don't want it to sound like that at all. I really don't. I can't seem to get my words together tonight.
But I do get why a person may stray to the arms of another.
I'd like to read how others feel about what Lynath has written.

Posted by: jenniferhi at May 8, 2008 8:34 PM

How can anyone be penniless at 50, there are courts thats decide who gets what and contrary to what people like to project it is an extremely stringent process. Why would someone be nearly penniless at 50, as they would get half of the proceeds from their marriage or at least 40% if there were children involved for the non custodial parent. I think there are a bit of boo hoo fibs there and if your friend was such a loser in his marriage he may need to be on his own for a while to sort himself out.

Posted by: iaminperth at May 8, 2008 8:33 PM

Hi Mick etc and Bob.
Re Lynaths long post, forgive, some people take things different to others. I just have had a mate have a break up, the second in his life, both around the 12 year mark of the relationship. His first one was as traumatic as the one Lynath described, the second because of the first, was a lot more philosophical, as I got him to believe that it has happend and will not change so why waste another 4 years of his life again, wondering why. So at nearly 50 he is starting his life again nearly penniless, the innocent victim of a cheating wife and a non-caring sexual predator, who in my opinion deserve each other and all the misfortune that can befall them.
Bob, to close to the truth. I always maintained that when the "anti's" got rid of tobacco they would start on the "grog " what the great uncomplaining and compliant mass should be wondering is what is "next" roll back to 1984.
Cheers OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 8, 2008 8:17 PM

Hi Mickmontana,

Great Tshirt....where can I get one?

Just saw a story on the news that says 2 standard drinks a day can trigger all sorts of cancer.....thank god I never stop at two....see, theres no such thing as too much alcohol.

Blondie,

You crack me up almost always when I read your posts...maybe it isn't nice having someone cheat on you...but its certainly far more harmful hanging onto that stuff like a rabid pitbull than building a bridge...that certainly will kill you.

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 8, 2008 7:32 PM

Passed a bloke wearing a T shit on the weekend that read:

�Cancel my subscription to your issues.�

Reminded me of the Lynath Diaries

Posted by: mickmontana at May 8, 2008 6:39 PM

NGG your personal story was the catalyst for discussion about responsibility. My point is that there is never ever any justification for infidelity. You take the view that the cheater is a helpless victim. ..and that is the line of most cheaters when caught. Sorry, by the act of infidelity she is automatically a member of 'that ilk" That is one of the consequences for cheaters..the risk of loss of integrity and trustworthiness.

Jenniferhi There is a great difference between an open agreement to seek relationships outside and the abusive act of cheating. The first involves consent knowledge and choice. The second does not. I am not advocating that couples stick together no matter what, only that if a person is so unhappy then leave prior to startign a new relationship. That is the only way to respectfully honour both the person and the relationship even if is ending
Yes I really not only think infidelity can destroy and damage a person for life I know it. This is not in the same category as a 'break up' which is sad and painful for awhile, it is the deliberate act of inflicting abuse on the unsuspecting partner.
People are victims for awhile, although most reach the day when the choose not to be one anymore and start rebuilding.
I have been involved for years with a support group for people recovering from a partners affair. I can give you multitudes of examples of evidence of the pain suffering and long term damage caused. Although there is no broken leg or wound to show the mental scarring and torture and trauma is horrendous.
People do move on again but once they have been the victim of cheating they are never quite the same person as they were before.The damage stays with them for life.
I am suprised that you would make the statement"But really don't you think if they are that type of person it is perhaps no wonder their partner strayed?"
Can I translate that as "Obviously they deserved it" which is the rationale behind all forms of abuse in the mind of the abuser that is.

Troy you just don't know that you don't know anything

waterbombe, no one was patronising not gods gift. Not offering help, just a few empathetic words of understanding of what he might have been through. The rest was just some experiences about recovery that other people might read and gain comfort from. The realisation that I was not the cause of an affair, a bad wife etc was the turning point for my recovery. Even if he didn't want that he responded rudely to stoics kind support
and in a very patronising nasty way at that.

traybit I know you are not condoning it and understand how devastated you would have been.

Jennifer hi again, there is one presumption which people make about relationships ended with affairs and you have just made it. That is that there is bitterness and hatred towards the cheating partner. No Jennifier that is no always the case. A great percentage ,myself included, loved their partner very much and would do anything to fix the relationship. The loss of a loved partner of many years to an affair is known to be much worse than losing them to death, without the support that one would have if they had died.
Love does not instantly cease when the affair is discovered. If it does then I would say there was not much value or real love in the relationship at all. The mental torture of loving someone and knowing they are with someone else is almost too much to bear.

Along with the partner is the loss of the years of history shared which can't be replaced with anyone else, and loss of lifestyle and identity and sense of place in the world. That is what is so incredibly sad and destructive about affairs, not the actual sexual act of betrayal. The senseless stupidity of allowing a basically good relationship to end because of outside pressure is hard to take. Many relationships could use the affair as a wake up call to address whatever the problem is within the marriage. Some people don't want to face that and just run away.
The continuation of love for a partner not bitterness, even when a new life is established and recovery has taken place is what makes accepting another one so very difficult, along of course with the inability to trust as much as before.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 8, 2008 6:16 PM

Perhaps the Duke is elliptically suggesting "May the force be with the alpha male of the group" from "an average frustrated chump"

Alternatively his head fell on the keyboard.

As previously stated, i've 'cheated' in the past as an exit strategy in relationships. I placed a high value on honesty and as such sleeping with someone else was something I couldn't disclose without hurting my partner thereby making leaving the only option.

I'm less wedding to the honesty thing these days. People get different things from different parts of their lives and different levels of interaction with people. Some derive satisfaction from jobs, some children, some their porn collection. You may get satisfying levels of emotional support, tenderness and laughter from your partner but like dirty up against the wall sex with your dentist. Selfish? maybe. Moral? who cares.

At the end of the day I say if no one died it was a good day.

Posted by: blondebiped at May 8, 2008 6:07 PM

I think the Duke is saying that he is as appalled as the rest of us, except for Virgil, at TW's crudity and lewdity...but I am more than happy to debate this issue, which TW has said followed on from my comments....which I would not have thought to be offensive to anyone.
Virgil, I think that TW tries far, far too hard...not really admirable...more player to me,

Posted by: istj54 at May 8, 2008 4:44 PM

Troy @ 1.37pm...

yep.. hahaha!
I'm not a morning person.. & my brain was involved with coffee at the time!

Posted by: decoratress at May 8, 2008 2:18 PM

Posted by: decoratress at May 8, 2008 10:43 AM

You are joking right? Hardly a new blogger haha.

Troy

Posted by: troyohboy at May 8, 2008 1:37 PM

jenniferhi at 12.10pm. Yes, exactly what I was trying to say in my long winded first post - I wasn't surprised to find out he was cheating. The signs were there and my gut told me there was more than alcohol keeping him at the pub and away from his family. Essentially, a breakdown in communication was the reason for the relationship ending. Mind you, that realisation and acknowledgement didn't stop me from feeling betrayed all the same, but I've moved on now and getting on with my life.

Posted by: traybit63 at May 8, 2008 1:35 PM

Amazing - Just have Oprah on in the background and the topic is about "Listening to your intuition." Love that!
I do so believe in going with our gut.
We have these senses for a reason. And there really is so often a 'knowing'.
Do others agree?

Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at May 8, 2008 1:10 PM

oops!

..sorry Duke, didn't recognise you..
..hahaha.. I take it all back!

duh-coratress!

Posted by: decoratress at May 8, 2008 1:07 PM

Ok this will be interesting.

How would you define my x,in our relationship,

When we first started dating we went everywhere together,24/7 sex was awmsome like 2 to 3 times a day 7 days a week.

3 years latter the sex, drops down to a average of 1 time a day, and we have two kids.

Here is the kicker,

She has always worked in hospitality so has many friends, co workers,but i'm starting to notice, she is going to staff parties alone, pubs and clubs with her friends,even weekends away with them.
Oh yes i was looking after the kids.
She even goes to weddings alone,3 of them as memory servers me correct.

Alarm bells go off,but who cares we just got married a year ago.we love each other.

5 years spending a lot of time not at home but over her girlfriend house still going out to parties and even more weddings by her self.
Hates showing affection in public.
Sex is down to once a week,not from me trying,sh is too tried has to go out etc.

7 years her friend has told her to get rid of me she deserves someone better, she spends most weekends over her house,leaving me at home.
LOL sex is down to once a month if I'm lucky.

9 years has the same friend,spends all her time with her. locked her mobile phone, goes out everywhere with her friends.

10 years separated. we talk on the phone everday and i go over and see her 3-4 times a week and the kids.

13 years SMS like 3 times a year.My sister
seen her holding hands with a guy in the shopping center. I hit rock bottom and I'm a wreak. Still thought we could get back together.

Do you think she cheated our relationship?
Do you think she cheated on me?

Thanks Sonny. Yes this is my real name i have nothing more to lose.

Posted by: subzeroelite at May 8, 2008 12:45 PM

Troy 9.44am - You are right - nothing is ever black and white. I suppose it's hard for me to grasp people that hold such bitterness and even hatred towards their ex-partners.
Relationships break down for so many reasons and I suppose for the wronged party when it's because of cheating it is a hard pill to swallow. But then I think - well if the relationship does break down because of it, learn from the experience, decide you deserve better in your life and begin the new part of your journey.
Do a lot of you not think there was a 'knowing' within you - a gut thing that all was not right. My opinion, but I think we need to tune in to our intuition much more about people. Often our first instinct is the right one.
Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at May 8, 2008 12:10 PM

It seems there is much more heat, many more things to discuss in a cheating blog, than I thought.

I think thee is probably an inbuilt resistance to cheating in all of us, maybe some more than others, and once it is broken, once, it is easier to cheat again.

What about cheating on the road, ie speeding. This form of cheating is fairly harshly punished, as governments see speeding fines as easy money. For me, I naerly always stick to the limit, as I dont like the fines.

Maybe the break up of relationships causes the cheaters to feel the pain, and not do it again? I dont know, because in personal relationships, the natural tendency is to blame the other.

Without impartial guidelines (eg the limit is 60, you were doing 75) some may go through life, believing it is OK to cheat, always thinking it is the fault of the other.

These people would be hard to have a relationship with.

Are they easy to pick? maybe, because when meeting for a coffee date, they will be the ones that tell you how bad their ex was.

At this stage of life, we are all recycled, would it be wonderful to be among those who married at an early age, lived happily till death many years later?

I'm not sure if I would like to be one of those, maybe I would, but there is something to be said for diversity, different cities, different jobs, different partners.

Posted by: virgil at May 8, 2008 10:47 AM

Yes, the Spice topic closed abruptly, & so I also bring a comment forward from it:

dukedakota @ 8.30am...
HHP DOM 101 AFC
MTFBWY
AMOG
AOTP
ASD
A/S/L
AAAAA

"duke"....
Perhaps you'd care to give us the short-cut translation? As useful comments go.. well.. it's not really, is it.

I'm sure we could work it out if we had time on our hands, but there are crossword puzzles for that.
Are you addressing anyone in particular?
Code for a mobile number perhaps?
You're a new blogger..
..are we to expect this sort of cleverness from you often?

This is a comment forum.
Your post...

"No comment"

Posted by: decoratress at May 8, 2008 10:43 AM

Amber and waterbombe, last night and this morning: Good thoughts well put.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 8, 2008 10:20 AM

The Spice blog closed rather suddenly so pardon me everyone for asking this question here.

What role would that be, TW? I've posted 5 times (6 now) since the end of March. That would make it a decidedly insignificant role compared to yours, I would say.

Posted by: ninaschen at May 8, 2008 9:59 AM

Posted by: jenniferhi at May 8, 2008 7:51 AM

Yes jen, it is obvious to all that there are those on this blog who have been damaged for life by a cheater. These individuals are making all sorts of judgements and I can only assume they have experienced personally every circumstance leading to, or occurring around this sort of situation. I used to believe it was black and white. I no longer believe this to be the case due to an experience in my life. Go ahead and state your opinion you damaged ones however please restrain the arrogance a little as, you just don't know what you don't know........ with the greatest respect.

Troy

Posted by: troyohboy at May 8, 2008 9:44 AM

Seems to me this one has hit hard, many differing opinions, Jenniferhi seems to have my favour. What happens when you are relatively young, your partner has a debilitating illness that will take many years to terminate, does anyone think that love is less if the purely physical needs come to the fore, the permission has been given to leave the marriage and the love says no, but then stupid keeps sticking his head up. I know the guilt is life long, and never repeated cheating next time.
OG

Posted by: oldergent at May 8, 2008 9:08 AM

Lynath 11.02pm - "Your last sentence. Leave if things are that unhappy." Well of course. That only makes sense.
But then you say "don't leave by destroying and damaging someone for life." Huh????

Even a loveless marriage can be working for one of the parties. And for a number of reasons. I certainly can understand couples staying together - financial, children, (in particular having a child with disabilities) yet the love between the couple has been lost or simply they have grown apart. Doesn't matter the reason. They often make a commitment to stay together for a particular reason. Why is it not ok then for them to seek gratification somewhere else? I can certainly understand and accept that.

That second part of your sentence though - geez that is pretty tough. Do you really think a break up can destroy and damage someone for life? Come on, surely you cannot really believe that. I know some people can live bitter and hateful lives and love to play the victim and wallow looking for sympathy from all and sundry. But really don't you think if they are that type of person, it is perhaps no wonder their partner strayed?

Jen

Posted by: jenniferhi at May 8, 2008 7:51 AM

Lynath, my impression is Notgodsgift may have seen the support you guys offerred as patronising. The reason for that is that, as he said, he is genuinely over his marriage - the split occurred 18 years ago - and he doesn't need support now. Offerring help to someone who doesn't want or need it is insensitive...it is insensitive because you haven't accurately perceived what they need. Insisting people accept help when they don't want or need it can be seen as patronising. This is not a "go" at you, but a possible explanation of the misunderstanding.

I agree with you that both parties are not equally responsible for cheating. If there is pressure and stress in a marriage, both people experience the stress, but only one copes with it by cheating. The other one has done their coping without cheating, as Stoic said.

The cheater might say to his partner that he's sorry, but I bet he doesn't say 'sorry, it was an accident' to his lover: he doesn't say "I tripped, slipped on the floor, and accidentally stuck my dick in you. Whoops. I'm so sorry, I guess this just isn't my week." Thanks Stoic for one of the best lines ever.

Anyone who is really bothered (I'm guessing TW and Marcus) can exchange he/his for she/her in the example above.

Posted by: waterbombe at May 8, 2008 7:10 AM

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 7, 2008 10:56pm
Firstly, let me say that I do not disagree with your stance on cheating and as I said in my earlier post I do not condone it and I most certainly didn't excuse my ex's behaviour at the time or at any time since. What I was getting at was that our relationship was, for all intents and purposes, already over and that I could relate to where notgodsgift was coming from when he made his comments about sharing responsibility for the failure of the relationship.

In regards to your comment "I have often wondered whether some people experience the effects of infidelity to a lesser extent than others. Now I know."
Believe me when I say that I was devastated when I discovered he was cheating on me (albeit, not surprised). It was one of the worst times of my life and I felt outraged and humiliated by the whole experience. I was hurt and angry that he thought so little of me and the relationship that we had built up over 10 years that he couldn't be man enough to say "hey, its time for me to move on". As I eluded to in my earlier post, we lived in a very small country town where everyone seems to know about everyone else's business and we were the hot topic for the gossip-mongers for quite a few weeks - a very bitter pill to swallow.

In the long run though, he's the one who has had the unhappiest of outcomes. His "affair" ended within a couple of weeks of me discovering he was cheating and turfing him out on his ear, his teenage son (my step-son) wants nothing to do with him and chose to come and live with me, and our daughter is fast coming to the same opinion, although I have tried to get him to make more of an effort to rebuild a relationship with her.

Finally, on a much lighter note, loved your closing quip about the emergency room. I remember a friend who worked in an emergency room once telling me about a bloke who'd been brought in and had to have a vacuum cleaner hose removed from... well I'm sure you can figure that one out!

Posted by: traybit63 at May 8, 2008 1:00 AM

I am impressed Lynath.

You really did cover it all thoroughly and eloquently.

One key point, as you said, infidelity is not going to go away but that does not mean we have to accept it or tolerate it.

Yeah it is a free society so nobody is going to be calling for the stoning of cheaters but we are free to judge and let them know what low life scum they are for engaging in it - at least I will anyway, even if others will be more kind about it :)

Posted by: stoic at May 8, 2008 12:33 AM

" Re waterbombe's at 7.41pm 6th : So I take it that you're quite OK with verbal abuse of any intensity by either gender, as long as no gender-specific slurs are included in it?"
- timewarp1 at May 6, 2008 10:31pm 6th.

" TW, let it go fer god's sake, it's getting boring." - waterbombe at 9:43am

" Don't be a spoilsport! Come out and play! I'll let you win, if your ego really needs that." - timewarp1 at 12:48pm

"Sorry TW, I keep blitzing you and it's just too embarrassing for you. I'll let you retire gracefully." - waterbombe at 10:42pm.

OK, I'll retire, but preferably disgracefully. Keep telling yourself that you've won our little debate, waterbombe, without bothering to answer my corrollory above, let alone mounting a credible argument to support your case.

Seems I'll have to look elsewhere for someone who's prepared to debate and justify the one-sided values they trumpet so loudly.
..............................................................

Anyone else want a muscular logical fun debate? Name your topic - I need the practice, to keep my elderly brains in trim.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 8, 2008 12:23 AM

I think it is important to know when to get out and to recognise what is worth saving or scrapping. If you stick around you waste resources and things get bitter. Relationships are not old cars or houses they cannot really be restored. I think a couple of comments have alluded to that. If a relationship is a sham or a product of an exagerated emotional dependancy and there is some extra curricular activity; so what? So what anyway? What does the contract say? Why is there such an enormous weight placed on the unlikely perhaps even absurd idea that humans are meant to be monagomous?

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 7, 2008 10:29 AM

Marcus,
You make it sound just oh so easy!
The trouble is Marcus that there are other people's feelings involved!
If you feel so litle concern for a partner, then why not just explain your feelings and leave?
You don't have to destroy the other person's dignity and be unkind about it.
Why is it necessary to hurt the other person by betraying them, just because YOU feel a relationship has nothing more to offer YOU?

You say you believe that relationships cannot really be restored, but there are relationships that have been salvaged out of infidelity, if both partners still care about and like each other enough, that both partners are willing to put in the self-sacrifice and work required to re-build the trust in the relationship.
Sadly a lot of people only recognise the true value of a previous partner, long after they have jumped over the fence into greener pastures, that often aren't as lush as they thought they would be.

Okay Marcus, you have told us often enough, many times over, that you think monogamy is "absurd".
Well obviously, that is your prerogative.
You don't need to try to explain or justify your position.
However, I hope you advise any prospective partner that that is your view of life?
Just so they know what to expect once you become bored with the relationship?

Posted by: amberlight58 at May 7, 2008 11:54 PM

Lynath,

Because I am not looking for support and empathy; I was relating a personal experience to make the point that its not always planned; and that there are always 2 sides to a story......if I can understand and accept my faults in that relationship breaking down...isn't that a good thing?

Somehow I feel that my story has been twisted to paint my ex as some sort of devious bimbo....being chucked in the same basket with anyone else of that ilk.....when she was anything but that....simply a victim of her own poor judgement at that time (my words, not hers).

Jen wrote about all seeming good in a relationship...but from whose point of view...maybe one partner is blissfully happy (and /or ignorant) whilst the other is hoping a hole opens and swallows them up. As I said, life is not black and white, but for those that believe it is....good luck to them...I think they will need it.

As I said earlier, I am not condoning cheating; but I understand that it can happen without being planned, and that the person doing the cheating is not always fully responsible for that happening....though they could certainly exercise a bit more judgement at times.

To me, being judgemental is not offering an opinion it is making an assertion when you are not in possession of all of the facts of a situation; but feel qualified and justified to pass judgement based upon a vague face value and your personal prejudices.

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 7, 2008 11:37 PM

Clearly we are talking mainly of infidelity in marriage situations, and as such l take that as sexual infidelity, as distinct from emotional infidelity.
The basic bones to me is that sexual infidelity, no matter what the cause, is an unacceptable thing to do. As in unacceptable to me.

What do the marriage vows say ??
Something along the lines of "Forsaking all others"? Do they still say this these days ??

Don't we all know the difference between right and wrong, fundamentally??

Whew a hot topic and sure to keep the opinions rolling along.................K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 7, 2008 11:19 PM

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 7, 2008 10:44 PM

Yes Bob, that happens even when people are in happy realtionships. It is at that stage that you remember that you have made some vows or commtment to someone else andtake it no further. That is what people mean when they say that relationships can be hard work sometimes. The benefits outweigh the instant gratification.
The excuse and justification of the loveless marriage is no excuse at all. Leave if things are that unhappy, don't leave by destroying and damaging someone for life.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 7, 2008 11:02 PM

Notgodsgift, I don't understand your reaction to the support and empathy offered to you first by Stoic and myself and others.You act as though we have criticised you.

I cannot bear the word 'judgemental" it is used constantly as the politically correct way of labelling and stopping people expressing an opinion.
Similar is the word 'negative' a favourite in workplaces to keep the employees under control.
I have a strong opinion on this subject and I am not afraid to express it or be backed cowering into the corner by those who want the idea and act of infidelity to be accepted socially.
I am not naive enough to believe that infidelity will ever go away. It has been a part of life since all that wife swapping and begetting was going on back when Moses was a boy.However I am not about to brush it off as okay or trivial.

I am happy to be considered judgemental on the matter while there is a whole industry making money out of infidelity. There is more than one support group on the web set up to assist, advise ,support and condone the deliberate act of cheating with intent to inflict abuse and destroy relationships. The Other Woman or TOW is one, also known as gloryb.com

These predators will demonstrate that things certainly don;t 'just happen' and that they have absolutely no remorse for the harm they cause.

My comment about recovery was meant in general not just about you. People can and do deal with the past sufficiently to live, laugh and love again, but the damage is with them forever.

istj ..yes they would still be hurt, but perhaps not subjected to the intense mental torture which is one of the consequences for the victim of a cheating partner for which there is no immediate cure.

traybit63 at May 7, 2008 1:32 the idea of taking equal responsibility for a relationship breakdown when one partner has cheated is something I also have difficulty with.

As Jenjen wrote above some people cheat when all seems good in the relationship. Many cheaters will state they love their partners. If there is a problem in the relationship then cheating is not going to fix it.

If a partner keeps secrets and disrespects enough to allow a third person into the relationship ,who then manipulates and influences while the primary partner has no chance or choice in the matter, then I cannot see how the should be assigned equal share of blame or responsibility for the breakdown. Affairs usually occur at a time in the relationship when things aren't going so well. It may not necessarily be about the romantic relationship, but rather pressure from elsewhere.

If instead of cheating the cheater directed time and energy towards solving the problem instead of running away menatally and physically then there would be many happier outcomes.

I have often wondered whether some people experience the effects of infidelity to a lesser extent than others. Now I know.

Malsie I loved you explanation of tripping and falling and oops! it just happened not my fault....
strangely enough that explanation has been given in many an emergency room for objects needing removing from unlikely body places!!!

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 7, 2008 10:56 PM

Hi Traybit63,

Can only agree completely with you and no, I dont condone cheating...though I do understand why it does happen, in some respects....and not always the obvious reasons, and nor always planned.

Spontaneity is a circumstance that can happen in many situations...even relationships (what, nooo); someone in a failing relationship receiving no affection meets someone attentive and caring (even if they are lying) and......remember guys (and you said it), cheating is not only the sexual act.

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 7, 2008 10:44 PM

Sorry TW, I keep blitzing you and it's just too embarrassing for you. I'll let you retire gracefully.

Posted by: waterbombe at May 7, 2008 10:42 PM

Istj

I am not sure why she told me she had gone to bed with this fellow.

Well, I do, but I won�t repeat it here.

But she did try to justify it by saying that I had slept with some other girl so she was entitled to do the same.

But the other girl was my previous and although I slept with her, it was slept in the innocent connotation and not anything more, that being the era.

What annoyed me about the whole thing was that I had let the earlier one slip away for this one because she was free and easy.

I should have stuck with the earlier one to this day and might have had 10 kids all raised as Catholics and what not, that being the era.

I am sure you would appreciate the connotations of 10 catholic kids.

Now that I come to think of it��

Posted by: dukedakota at May 7, 2008 9:16 PM

....wonder why she told you DukeDakota...you have to ask that question sometimes...gives you some insight into the reality of the situations you find yourself in...my first boyfriend had an affair with skydiving...gave him an ultimatum...the sky or me...well you know who he chose...not me that's for sure.
I cried for so long that I thought my eyes had turned red. What I am saying here is that first love is hard to recover your equanimiteeeeeeee...no matter the reason for the ending...

Posted by: istj54 at May 7, 2008 8:28 PM

I would like to say that my first girlfriend cheated on me by going to bed with some stranger she met on a cruise.

I was absolutely devastated.

It shook my faith in humanity.

Only now, 40 years down the track, have I been able to recover some of my equanimity.

Posted by: dukedakota at May 7, 2008 7:18 PM

Tell me friends, what would make him be like that?
Posted by: timewarp1 at May 7, 2008 6:17 PM

No idea Timewarp, but I used to have one just like him !!

And I don't get it at all - it isn't just me he cheated on, he cheated his kids out of the happy family life that they deserve. The two oldest ones , 19 and 24, refuse to speak to him, and he doesn't bother with the youngest (too young to go out drinking with him, I suspect).

Am over the hurt, no issues or baggage, I realise all men are different and the next one won't necessarily lie/cheat, but I do genuinely wonder why a man/woman cheats on their spouse when they have no knockbacks at home, great kids, good job etc. Is it an ego thing ? A selfish "I will just do what I want and hang the consequences" thing ?

The fallout from what he did and the break up of the family affected so many people.

Posted by: jenjen57 at May 7, 2008 7:17 PM

Why do people cheat?

1) We've heard about the ones who wereno longer on good enough terms with their spouse to qualify for nookie at home. Couldn't do without it regularly, so got a bit on the side. Not to nark their spouse - just to get a bit of what they need.

2) Some are so cranky about the knockbacks at home, that they tell themselves they're only straying to prove a point. They can get it, so that proves they deserve it, so their spouse doesn't deserve them.

3) My psychic Brazilian friend once got entangled with one of the third kind.

Told her he was separated, but living in the same house till the divorce and settlement came through. Took her home now and then, for a bit. Till his wife came home unexpectedly, caught her there and hit the roof.

A year or two later he got back in touch. Divorce through, and wanted to see her again. Still as charming as ever.

She proposed on Feb 29 and he accepted.
A week later she had a sudden bad feeling and checked out several of the less-restrained internet dating sites.

There he was, newly signed on a couple of days before as "married, but looking for a discreet dalliance."

He seems to need to cheat on whoever he has committed to, whoever she is. Immediately.

Tell me friends, what would make him be like that?

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 7, 2008 6:17 PM

Hi All,

Interesting comments....nothing just happens,,,,its all planned. If it is planned, then it will most likely go on, but something that just happens will normally be a once only event...then end.

My ex's infidelity was a one off thing (I know, his ex was stalking him and told me), and never happened again (though they have been together now since we broke up -18 years) whilst we were together, not a continuing saga.

Lynath,

Everything you say has credence....if you know the full story and the people involved...there are far more serious issues here on which I dont care to elaborate...but it goes into the type of person I was then. Suffice to say I have no deep seated loathing or disrespect for myself, nor am I in need of recovery....I have dealt with my past (relationship wise)....and left it where it belongs...in the past.....I wonder if some of the judemental people here are able to say the same with any confidence.

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 7, 2008 5:44 PM

Good stuff here. Particularly liked Stoic's movie sound bite (4.26pm) and thrippence63's maiden effort at 1.32pm. Hope we'll hear more from you, '63.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 7, 2008 5:16 PM

I can understand how someone might cheat after being alone in a loveless, cold marriage for many years and suddenly finding themselves head over heels in love with someone they have met, maybe through work or friends and slowly fallen in love with.......and is it okay then if they tell the partner that it's over now and then go off with the new person....They would not be nearly so hurt...would they?? I'll tell you for nothing that Yes...they would!
People are hurt all the time in this game called love and there is never any easy way to let someone down who has strong feelings for you...not nice to cheat but being dumped can be as hurtful as being cheated on.

Posted by: istj54 at May 7, 2008 5:09 PM

Thanks Lynath and JenJen.

And yes notgodsgift - I did misread your post and did write a follow up saying I conceded that you didn't cheat on her and that the phrase "Cheating each other" indicates something else (to me anyway) - pretty much like what you said in your most recent. I stand corrected there.

Even if cheating was a symptom rather than the cause, sorry but that still doesn't cut it. Maybe you are willing to forgive it but I am not and neither are several others so save that fool's paradise shit for someone who is buying it.

Now to anyone who says cheating just happens, I am reminded of a great scene from the Last Boy Scout. Joe Hallenback (played by Bruce Willis) has just busted his friend Mike sleeping with his wife:

Mike: It just happened, Joe.
Joe: Sure. Sure. I know. It just happened. It could happen to anybody. An accident, right? You tripped, slipped on the floor, and accidentally stuck your dick in my wife. "Whoops. I'm so sorry, Mrs H. I guess this just isn't my week."

And while I think of it, the movie also starred Halle Berry in one of her first movies. Good action flick all round.

Posted by: stoic at May 7, 2008 4:26 PM

What is cheating? Does this question really need to be asked? I think everyone knows what cheating constitutes.

Posted by: woodnwine at May 7, 2008 2:19 PM

I've been "lurking" in the background and reading the blogs on and off for the past month or so. During that time I've read many posts with which I agree and probably just as many with which I disagree. However, agree or disagree, I have found it very entertaining at times! I've never really felt that I had much to contribute, so I haven't joined in the "fun", but comments made by notgodsgift @ May 6, 2008 , 8.00pm and the ensuring debate that has followed has prompted me to come out of hiding.

Like notgodsgift, I didn't cheat on my ex-partner - he was the one who cheated on me and it went on for a couple of months before I found out. Strange really because we lived in a very small country town which thrives on gossip. Anyway, our relationship had been off the rails for months, maybe even a couple of years so I wasn't surprised to discover him in the arms of another woman - angry, hurt, humiliated, yes - but not surprised.

Later, I commented to a good mate of his that it takes 2 to make a relationship and also 2 to break it - I accepted my share of responsibility for the failure of the relationship. His mate's response was..."yeah but you didn't go out screwing around did you?" His response indicated that he saw the cheating as the reason the relationship ended - that wasn't the case - it was the catalyst, but not the reason.

I think it was a bit like the situations amberlight58 referred to in her post (May 7, 2008, 8.36am), except in my case I used his cheating as my excuse to end the relationship when really I should have ended it much sooner and cited the "real" reasons for the failure of the relationship. By the same token, he should have done the same thing before he "moved on".

Anyway, my (long and laboured) point here is, yes I agree with notgodsgift that there is always 2 sides to every story and I understand where he's coming from in accepting his share of responsibility for its failure. I don't think he is actually condoning cheating as such.

I certainly don't condone it, haven't done it, nor would I, but I endeavour to be as non-judgemental of other people and their behaviours as possible and accept that there are indeed 2 sides to every story.

Posted by: traybit63 at May 7, 2008 1:32 PM

..if flirting is used as a prelude to cheating then morally its wrong..if it's used for getting to know some-one you're attracted to and it is reciprocated..assuming you are both free..then why not?

I guess online dating sites would have to be a big flirt fest??..with some using it ..unfortunately for the reasons being discussed on this blog..

Posted by: naturalwoman08 at May 7, 2008 12:52 PM

Waterbombe @ 9.43am (last line) replying to mine at 10.31pm last night: Don't be a spoilsport! Come out and play! (I'll let you win, if your ego really needs that.)

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 7, 2008 12:48 PM

With regard to the concept of things "just happening" - sure, they do happen, they happen because someone has decided on a course of action and carries it out. They're not walking along, fall over on top of someone and magically discover they're having sex... wow, what a surprise, never saw that one coming... mmm, must have "just happened".

Posted by: malsie at May 7, 2008 11:21 AM

..being an incredibly curious person I love listening and talking to many and varied people ..for me..everyone has something interesting to say..from the shyest to the most cynical..if you dig deep enough..if you want to..it can be hard work at times..

it doesn't have to be earth shattering or deliriously funny..but I enjoy finding out about people..whether this is mistaken by some misguided opportunists as a mating signal from me is unfortunate..(for them)! :))

BUT..this is where I differ from other posts..when I meet some-one I am attracted to..they never know..

our eyes lock and I am suddenly paralysed..ugh!..and apparently appear aloof which is just a disguise for sudden debilitating shyness..or something just as alienating..

there is something so powerful about that initial chemistry that truly has the opposite effect on my senses that would surely mystify evolutionary scientists ..

definately could never be accused of harmless flirting for the purpose of attracting some-one..(not that there is really anything wrong with that)! ..yet it could be misconstrued by some that I do..because of my curious and (zesty) personality..not true!..

p.s. if I ever do meet some-one on rsvp.. you now know the clues! :)

off to flutter my eyelashes at an unsuspecting male..

cheers NWx

Posted by: naturalwoman08 at May 7, 2008 11:11 AM

Waterbeetle.
I hope you have surfaced...
It was a suprise and a relief in a way to witness her duplicity. The relationship had been lethargic at best and then terminal but not properly recognised and euthanased. I think it is important to know when to get out and to recognise what is worth saving or scrapping. If you stick around you waste resources and things get bitter. Relationships are not old cars or houses they cannot really be restored. I think a couple of comments have alluded to that. If a relationship is a sham or a product of an exagerated emotional dependancy and there is some extra curricular activity; so what? So what anyway? What does the contract say? Why is there such an enormous weight placed on the unlikely perhaps even absurd idea that humans are meant to be monagomous?
Now, flirting again. What I am saying is flirting is the preliminary assesment of partner worthiness and their response. It may quickly extend to a short courtship and coitus- in one meeting. It often may go nowhere for all sorts of reasons or it may precede an extended romantic courtship. It is not courtship in the sense I understand it.

Bitche. I hear it used sometimes as a term of endearment or mild reproach. I don't think too many women are mortally offended by it.
Cheers MS

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 7, 2008 10:29 AM

I think cheating is like problem gambling, the cheater/gambler knows they have done wrong, so they rationalize it to themself, that is was someone else's fault.

Posted by: virgil at May 7, 2008 10:19 AM

I've never really found physical fidelity to be particularly important. Honesty is though. It's an intriguing conundrum. Black and white rules are dull and people who demand acquiescence to their rules are even duller.

Posted by: blondebiped at May 6, 2008 10:13 PM

Hmmm not sure if i'm reading this correctly, but I get the sense you are saying its OK to cheat (bonk) on your partner so long as you tell them you did?

I would think that the sort of person who bonks another person while married, or in a relationship would be the sort of person who might find reasons not to tell?

Would they not be the reasons that justify the cheaters behaviour, because of a perceived injustice by their partner?

Posted by: virgil at May 7, 2008 10:16 AM

amberlight58 at 8:36 AM: You are so right. TLD too. I always find you both worth rereading. Tell you a relevant true story about a friend's experience tonight, when I've got more time.

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 7, 2008 9:54 AM

Well that must have hurt, Marcus, I'm sorry to hear that. Jealousy is often a sign of an unfaithful partner...what they accuse you of is what they are doing themselves...sounds like your ex did a bit of a commando thing herself with Hugh-from-up-the-road. That's happened to lots of us and leads to lack of trust for a long time.

I don't think flirting is always directly aimed at sexual outcomes...some of us define it differently, as a kind of light-hearted teasing of other people with the intention to make some sort of connection, but not necessarily a sexual one. What you describe is more of a "potential mate assessment" scenario. However a lot of us do a lot more flirting than would be necessary if we were only looking for a mate. And before you tell me what "the definition" is, Marcus, be aware it's the definition you are using...others may well be using different definitions with equal validity. After all, flirting is a social term, not a scientific one. As I recall from my years studing biology, pre-coital behaviour in animals is not called flirting, it is called a 'courtship ritual'.

TW, let it go fer god's sake, it's getting boring.

Posted by: waterbombe at May 7, 2008 9:43 AM

Posted by: amberlight58 at May 7, 2008 8:36 AM

Your post is mostly accurate excepting when you add your own interpretation of the 'emotional crutch'. I do wonder however if you crave the confrontation as you often include in your posts a reference to being at odds with the 'alpha males', whoever they are. Amber, you should rethink that a questioning of your opinions is an attack. Unless it's a recognition thing in which case I have no opinion.

Troy

Posted by: troyohboy at May 7, 2008 9:33 AM

eachdayasitcomes May 6, 2008 10:37 PM
If as you say you are interacting with women for the social pleasure of it I think that is called sociability of gregariousness.
Flirting as defined has a very definite meaning and is the preliminary step to assesing someone as a prospective sexual partner. A man knows when a women meets eyes and then looks down and then up and giggles with her hand near her mouth and a woman recognises the blokes expansive arm movements and puffed chest. All ancient brain primal mating preliminaries.
Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 7, 2008 8:58 AM

Hi Stoic,
I think you are being bit rough on Notgodsgift!
I didn't actually think he was saying he cheated on his wife in a physical sense, what I read from his post was that he felt that they were cheating each other, by denying how bad things were and staying in a relationship that was obviously dead.

Personally I agree with your stance, to me cheating is never acceptable; if there is something wrong with your relationship, fix it, throw everything you have at it.
If that doesn't work and let's be honest, both parties have to be truly committed to that process because it's always really hard work, then leave the relationship.

However, I know some really nice people who have opted not to take this path.
One lady I know left her abusive husband only after finding someone else (his best friend actually whom she eventually married. Ouch!!) but she was simply not psychologically strong enough to leave him on her own.
This is not right in an ethical sense, but not everyone is strong enough to do the "right" thing. And she needed to get away from him.

I have known others who have not had abusive relationships but have left their relationships in a similar way.
It is cruel for the person being left, but does not necessarily mean that the person concerned is a moral backwater, just a weak person, who relies on others to give them the strength to leave.
It often is just as cruel for the person who enbles the "cheating" person to leave, as sometimes they are really just a crutch for that person's emotional incapacity, who is eventually discarded once the person feels strong enough to survive on their own, or finds someone "better".

I have read that it is more often men, who find someone else, before they leave the security of a relationship, rather than women.
I believe statistics show that women are more likely to leave an unhappy relationship, simply because they are unhappy, whereas men more often find someone else first to help them leave (an emotional" crutch"?), before they leave a relationship.
Maybe a lot of men simply aren't strong enough to survive on their own; over-mothered in their childhood, perhaps?

I await my mauling from the alpha males!

Posted by: amberlight58 at May 7, 2008 8:36 AM

Posted by: eachdayasitcomes at May 6, 2008 10:37 PM , that is how I view flirting.

I do it every day in some way, as it is as you say, a sparkle in the eye, a big smile. It is how I do a lot of business, and how I get a lot done, being a Project Manager in a male dominated field.

A big smile works wonders!!!!!! Having a harmless flirt, a laugh, really helps get a lot done, and when I get the next project with those same people, we all get on well and we achieve!!

People will work well for someone who can laugh, is approachable, have a joke, a harmless light flirt, and I have proven time and time again since 1999, when I started in project management, that this works. And the good thing is that no one takes it seriously, we are NOT all trying to jump into the sack with anyone.

Cheating is not flirting, cheating is people seriously looking for something outside of thier relationship/marriage. Even if it just happens...it is a choice.

Cheating is breaking your word, and breaking the trust.......and for me breaking your word and our trust is a major major killer of any relationship I am in.

I will not tolerate cheating.

Anyway on that light note!!! Have a lovely day all....jewels

Posted by: junebaby57 at May 7, 2008 7:45 AM

Posted by: stoic at May 6, 2008 10:59 PM

Right on stoic, it doesn't just happen !!! That is the crappy excuse my ex husband used to excuse his cheating behaviour...........but he obviously made a very conscious decision to remove his clothes and get into bed with someone else.

Blondebiped, I would have thought physical infidelity did not fall into the category of "Honesty is though". Cheating must be about the most dishonest thing one can do to a partner I would have thought. JMO.

Posted by: jenjen57 at May 7, 2008 7:31 AM

For every person here who takes the 'Either/Or' approach to this complex issue, there are many others here who have seen or experienced the many shades of grey in between.

No one who tells themselves they have a strong moral code deliberately sets out to cheat. No one deliberately sets out to hurt another. No one here should confuse flirting with cheating, or for that matter, a healthy sexual fantasy about another person while you happen to be in intercourse with another.

But that said, cheating happens. It happens, sadly, when you find you have been the unwitting partner with a person who is not as single as they would have you believe. It happens when you get too drunk for your own good. It happens when the end of your marriage is over in all bar legalities. It happens in mid-week conferences, weekend getaways, beach-side holidays and it's always, ALWAYS opportunistic.

The one thing it isn't is definitive. What would crush one person with infidelity, would be understood and condoned by others. Don't pre-judge anyone. And don't ever think it won't happen to you,or that you would respond honourably when it does. Until that tipping point arrives, you just don't know.

Posted by: guiltypleasure at May 7, 2008 7:21 AM

Again stoic great post and I just used those very words myself.
I think NGG meant they cheated each other the last three years, not on each other.
Cheated each other of a real relationship I think he meant.
You are so right about feeding rubbish. I actually just cut out a bit of a tirade against counsellors and the attempts to excuse and justify this form of abuse as acceptable.

It is a serious matter with long term consequences both pyschological and emotional for the victims

I

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 6, 2008 11:34 PM

notgodsgift Stoic is so right..there is never any justification for cheating. Everyone has a choice and then should take responsibility for that choice. NGG I think you have come to believe the cheaters justification that somehow you made them do it, you did not meet their needs ,you were a bad husband/wife etc etc etc...those exact words are used around the world on a daily basis by adulterous partners when their infidelity is discovered. The person who is cheated on is in such a stunned confused and emotional state that they believe what is being told to them.
Self esteem at that point dips to zero.

What you have to do is think realistically about what has been said to you and realise that the accusations are not accurate, but just poor excuses for the inexcusable emotional and long term psychological abuse which has been inflicted.
Once you do that then recovery is possible.
If someone is so unhappy they should leave the relationship prior to starting a new one.
In your case if there was still great affection then the marriage still had a chance. The energy directed away from that to another relationship was the major contributing factor to the demise.

eachdayasitcomes, communication is important but there are other reasons why people cheat which may have little to do with the primary realtionship.

blondebiped, I am interested to know how you manage your 'conundrum' that honesty is important but fidelity is not. How is it honest to be a third person creeping around and interfering with someones relationship (or your own)disrespecting the unsuspecting partner and not allowing that partner to have a say or choice in the matter. How is it honest to knowingly set out to destroy a relationship ,often a family? Most cheaters like to say 'It just happened and I couldn't help it" but that is another dishonest justification. Affairs don't just happen, it takes lots of manipulation and deliberate intent.

Your denial and brush off line that anyone who demands this or complains is dull , along with your "hey it works for me" are typical statements of people selfish enough to cheat and refusing to acknowledge the pain and damage caused by their behaviour.
People who cheat nearly always have self esteem issues themselves.They boost themselves up by enjoying the short term power to disrupt someone else's life and the attention it brings along with the belief that they are somehow 'special' as in " I am so wonderful and special because he has chosen me"
Cheaters are not good prospects for long term relationships because of these issues, and as soon as the euphoric effect has worn off or the thrill is no longer there(when the affair is dicovered) then they move on to their next victim for another fix.

Posted by: thelynathdiary at May 6, 2008 11:27 PM

Stoic,

Who said anything about cheating on each other for 3 years.....we cheated each other because the relationship was over but neither of us realised it, or wanted to accept it.....take your pick.

Obviously life is black and white for you and full of absolutes....good for you...but get a reality check before you go having shots at others lives. If you think that things dont "just happen" then you are living in a fools paradise....a state of mind is a common situation of things "just happening" because all reason has gone out the door.

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 6, 2008 11:24 PM

notgodsgift - Reading closer I see you typed "the fact is we had been cheating each other for 3 years before the end happened" not "the fact is we had been cheating ON each other for 3 years before the end happened"

Only one word but it makes a lot of difference.

I still stand by my original point that even "cheating each other" does not justify cheating on someone, but I can see there was more at play than I had originally assumed.

That point conceded.

Posted by: stoic at May 6, 2008 11:23 PM

Goodness a very interesting topic this one....
My personal view is that in a relationship / marriage situation, get out the relationship and then start with someone else if you want to.
Acknowledge that things are failing or have failed and irretrievable and then move on with your life.

Would save some heartache l would think........
However, being what we are, the ideal solution does not exist, does it ???............................K

Posted by: auntykaz at May 6, 2008 11:19 PM

notgodsgift - If you think you and/or your ex were justified in cheating on each other for the last 3 years before the end, whether because of the deep affection between yourselves or whatever then good for you. You are the one that needs to sleep with yourself at night.

But please do us all a favour and don't feed us that bullshit about things"just happening" - especially when that thing is cheating.

It doesn't "just happen". Someone makes a choice to betray someone else - whether it be emotionally or sexually or whatever.

Posted by: stoic at May 6, 2008 10:59 PM

Flirting has very little to do with cheating. I flirt every single day. Not because I'm looking to hook up, but because i'm attracted to smiles and eyes that light up, so I try and draw those qualities from every person I interact with. General banter occurs every day between members of the same sex. Why is it deemed flirting when it's two members of the opposite sex.

Relationship breakdowns boil down to one basic core function.... COMMUNICATION.
**as quoted from "the world according to me" **

Understanding how you feel and where you are at mentally, communicating that to your partner at any given time, and receiving the same openness and honesty in return is vital in a relationship. When two people love each other completely, you want to be together, and every other aspect of your physical and emotional relationship comes into sync. If it’s not there be honest and admit it. Put aside your own feelings of guilt and deal with the issue before it gets out of control.

Posted by: eachdayasitcomes at May 6, 2008 10:37 PM

waterbombe at 7.41pm : So I take it that you're quite OK with verbal abuse of any intensity by either gender, as long as no gender-specific slurs are included in it?

Posted by: timewarp1 at May 6, 2008 10:31 PM

Hey Stoic,

Nice observation fella...but you were not there, so you 2 cents isn't worth squat...I didn't realise any of this overnight; it took a lot of soulsearching over a number of years...and knowing just what type of person my ex is...and what type of person I was.

I came to a few conclusions, including sometimes circumstances just happen; especially when we are unhappy and feel that we are drowning, but haven't yet realised that the end is nigh. When is a relationship over; certainly usually long before we give it the last rites, or even realise it. Its so easy to blame the person that cheats....the fact is we had been cheating each other for 3 years before the end happened....we just didn't realise it...or we just wouldn't accept it because there was still a deep affection there between us.

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 6, 2008 10:22 PM

I've never really found physical fidelity to be particularly important. Honesty is though. It's an intriguing conundrum. Black and white rules are dull and people who demand acquiescence to their rules are even duller.

Posted by: blondebiped at May 6, 2008 10:13 PM

I think cheating is breaking of trust and if you don't have trust in any relationship then I tend to believe you don't have anything. Also unfortunately once that trust is broken it's awfully hard to regain. However, that's just my point of view and it seems everyone nowadays has a story to justify their own actions, usually with a little pop psychology mixed into the equasion.

Posted by: iaminperth at May 6, 2008 10:04 PM

notgodsgift

very good mate, I never cheated on anyone, but likewise, I wasnt the best husband either.

I can see that now, after many relationships.

Shame we cant have many relationships before marriage, then we know how to treat our wives, thereby having long marriages.

Posted by: virgil at May 6, 2008 9:28 PM

Stoic you are right on the money there.

Posted by: waterbombe at May 6, 2008 9:18 PM

Flirting is a vital body language swapping critical info about our general health and reproductive fitness. Flirting is nature's solution to the problem we, and every creature, faces in a world of potential mates without going all the way and risking pregnancy. It is a comparatively risk free set of signals to sample mates, test sexual wares and give information about health and status. It is primal behaviour and shared by everything from insects to elephants.

I will generalise and say that flirting is conducted with serious intent by men, often stymied in their desire for sex by circumstances, and to a lesser extent by women who may be slightly more interested in it as an attractiveness/testing/validation process.

On Cheating.
My concubine for many years of many years ago had her green eyes ablaze at the slightest hint of a rival. Real or imaginary. She would sometimes do a covert full forensic examination of my car when I came home from working. Nary a lipsticked cigarette butt, a strange hair or unaccountable phone number was ever found. When quizzed I could confess to a dangerous honesty and say, err of course from time to time I am mentally desirous of other women but nothing physical. I did think her sister was particularly lavish and mentioned it. Sometime after that I was accused of sitting in the lounge opposite said sister wearing shorts commando style.
This provoked great mirth which nearly resulted in my eyes being scratched out.
Upshot was that arriving home early one friday I saw the travel bag being loaded into 'that nice' Hugh-from-up-the-streets boot and the two of them (and her daughter) disappearing for the weekend "with Belinda and the girls at the holiday house".
Cheers Marcus

Posted by: laughsandtalks at May 6, 2008 9:17 PM

On the topic - "Once a cheat, always a cheat", and "If they'll cheat with you, they'll cheat on you."

Now to notgodsgift - personally I think that is a load of rubbish and you really need a better opinion of yourself.

You don't blame her? She cheated on you. Maybe you weren't the greatest husband in the world but she should have had the courage to tell you that to your face and ask for a divorce or whatever - not go behind your back and betray your trust for whatever justification she might have given you.

There is no justification for that - especially since you didn't cheat on her.

My $0.02.

Posted by: stoic at May 6, 2008 8:47 PM

notgodsgift...you always seem to have a very level-headed view of relationships and people. I enjoy reading your posts and often find myself nodding my head...and not dropping off to sleep:)

Posted by: istj54 at May 6, 2008 8:35 PM

Is your eyesight going, TW? It's a gender-specific slur that you have to avoid, not a gender-specific term. If it was the latter, we couldn't even say "he" or "she". Read more carefully and think more carefully.

Posted by: waterbombe at May 6, 2008 8:15 PM

Hey Blondebiped,

Your honesty is refreshing...but you have created a paradox for those demanding honesty....are you worth a risk because you admitted cheating...even though you have been honest and admitted it (personally, I think that you are)?

I didn't cheat on my wife (though guilty of plenty of flirting)...ends up she cheated on me. Fact is though, after a bit of introspection, I can hardly blame her for doing that....I wasn't exactly the greatest husband in the world.

Maybe before we start accusing anyone of cheating we should look at what motivates that....particularly our own behaviour in the relationship, after all there are 2 sides to every story.

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 6, 2008 8:00 PM

Hey,

How about a blog topic on why people with monumental issues think that they can attract well adjusted people.....hang on, seems they do...or are they just attracting other people with monumental issues who think they are well adjusted?

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at May 6, 2008 7:50 PM

Oh wow, you've dragged out that tired old chestnut, TW..."Let's have a campaign to eliminate verbal abuse of men by women, so that inarticulate men will in future have no excuse for physical abuse of women!"
What you are saying is "some men hit women because of what women say"; i.e. "if these women didn't say these things, they wouldn't get hit"....i.e. "these women get hit because they asked for it"... ie "it's women's fault". It's YEARS since we went along with that idea, TW...brush your attitudes up. No one is allowed to assault anyone for any reason ... we can all walk away. Primary school kids are taught not to hit people because of what they say fer gods sake.

And thanks for noticing how little I blog...which of us would be wasting more energy, I wonder? You who spends hours penning long missives on a daily basis, I would guess.

Back to the point of the blog...cheating. Flirting is not cheating ...flirting is fun and a great way to engage with people in a light hearted way. Most people flirt, but I have noticed that those who never do are pretty earnest (That might be your problem, TW...try flirting more instead of penning more letters-to-us-all-telling-us-how-things-really-are). I have had no intention of going to bed with almost everyone I have ever flirted with because sex is not the outcome I want from flirting. Fun is.

One thing I always do is warn a partner that if I am cheated on he won't see me for dust. So they don't cheat, or they think long and hard about how to conceal it completely so I never even suspect it for a nanosecond :-)). Either way I am happy.

Posted by: waterbombe at May 6, 2008 7:41 PM