RSVP Blog

ODE

You are right............no trouble meeting men at all, meet lots, just not THE ONE. Thought I came close recently but he seems to have gone awol :(

Posted by: jenjen57 at January 4, 2008 2:27 PM

ODE - is there any way I can win her affection back after initially doing everything wrong? Help!

Posted by: woodnwine at January 4, 2008 2:23 PM

ODE - please help. I just read your latest advice column and I have done everything wrong. What I would like is your advice on how to resurect a situation where I did everything the exact opposite to what you advised and (naturally) got myself into lots of trouble. In other words, I played no games, did not lie, did not act tough and failed.
signed desperate and datelsss

Posted by: woodnwine at January 4, 2008 2:22 PM

jenjen57, aww, thanks. I'm surprised to learn that some of you female bloggers are having trouble meeting men. I'd always imagined that all women -- well, with very few exceptions -- have at least three men after them. I've never seen a woman walk into a club or local hangout without being hounded by men.

Is it a problem of meeting men in general or a problem of meeting Mr. Right, which is far more difficult? My advice for fellow love-losers is just about meeting women in general. I wouldn't have a clue how to meet Mrs. Right. ;-)

P.S. To those who spent stamps on little me, I'm currently getting the email situation fixed.

Posted by: onlinedatingexpert at January 4, 2008 2:03 PM

ODE you are an inspiration !!

Hoe about some fresh advice for us girls. Nothing seems to be working :)

Posted by: jenjen57 at January 4, 2008 1:20 PM

HOW TO BE A CON(VO) ARTIST WITH WOMEN ON RSVP AND OFFLINE

Hello, it's been a while, so I'll try to make up for it with a bit of a lengthy post. Along with the usual craziness, there's some semi-serious advice in here I've picked up over the last few years. Your guess is as good as mine whether any of it is really meaningful, but I reckon there's plenty to think about.

I must confess: When it comes to conversation, I am often a complete dud-flop and probably have no business dispensing my latest advice on how to be a con(vo) artist with women. Caveat emptor: Do as I say, not as I do.

My inspiration for this installment comes from the movie School for Scoundrels, starring Billy Bob Thornton and Jon Heder. Thornton plays the hard-nosed Dr. P, who gives his students a list of rules for interacting with women, rules reproduced here:

From the bar to your bed
----------------------------
1. Be dangerous; it's cool.
2. No compliments. Ever.
3. Get the girl alone. Wherever you are, the place sucks.
4. Parallel her values.
5. Relate to her.
6. Lie, lie, and lie some more.

I was pretty impressed with so much modern dating lore revealed in such a condensed form, and I'd like to expand on the cutting-edge rules listed above so that other men who find themselves in my lonely, desperate position may be able to go out there and have a fighting chance in the cutthroat dating world of today.

The rules are aimed at men conversing with women. Female readers who are interested in similar rules for dealing with and conversing with the male jackarses of the world may wish to consult the popular book The Rules: Time-Tested Secrets for Capturing the Heart of Mr. Right, by Ellen Fein and Sherrie Schneider.

The name of the game these days is manipulation.

Rule 1: Be dangerous; it's cool.
=========================

This is pretty much the "girls go for the bad boys" idea.

According to many researchers on mating theory (such as Geoffrey Miller), the female brain is wired to seek ONE lover AT A TIME and ONE provider AT A TIME, and the lover and provider very rarely will be the same man. Incidentally, the male brain is wired to seek MULTIPLE lovers AT A TIME. So both sexes are inherently non-monogamous.

A woman is willing to sleep with a lover right away, whereas she prolongs intimacy with a provider until he proves his loyalty, stability, resourcefulness, and staying power (he'd have to help rear kids, after all). A man assigned to one category will find it very difficult to jump to the other. The lover is short-term; the provider is long-term. The lover is popularly referred to as an alpha male; the provider is referred to as a beta male. It's obvious that alpha males get all the fun and action. Unlike other species, male humans can take comfort in the fact that it's often possible to change one's biological destiny.

Other than the lover-provider division, there is the dominant-submissive division. One dating expert has used both divisions to arrive at eight dating personality types:

D - dominant (he controls)
S - submissive (she controls)
L - lover (self-oriented, seduces/attracts)
P - provider (her-oriented, courts)

The eight types
-----------------

bad boy (D, L) - danger
adventurer (D, L) - fun

seducer (S, L) - sex
artist (S, L) - emotion

successful guy (D, P) - means
daddy (D, P) - control

regular guy (S, P) - loyalty
arse-kisser (S, P) - her boy

Women will have their individual preferences when it comes to male personality types, but the ordering above is a good generality concerning which personality types tend to enjoy the most success with women. Be the bad boy or the adventurer, a source of danger, thrill, fun, excitement, and challenge.

Your New Year's resolution could include buying a set of fake tattoos and other fake body mods, black hair dye, jeans with holes in them, a used motorcycle, a leather outfit, and anything else that is relatively impermanent and allows you to go back to your job as a tax accountant on Monday morning.

For Sydney guys, if you play your cards right at the Bloc (Penrith) or the Pink Pepper Lounge (Parramatta), you may be able to weasel your way into the Rebel or Nomad biker gang, respectively. One tactic I recommend is taking in a little remote-controlled motorcycle, which, even should the bikers not share your amusement, the kids in the children's ward surely will, at which point you transition to my earlier advice for picking up nurses.

Rule 2: No compliments. Ever.
========================

This is in line with the modern dating rule that warns against supplicatory behaviour.

Complimenting a woman in the initial stages of an encounter communicates the subtext that you place your value beneath hers rather than equal to or above hers. It also tends to blow your game right away, since you're then no different from any of the other one hundred guys who have approached her and complimented her, directly or indirectly, in the last week.

Sincere compliments have their value in the later stages of a relationship, and you may even be able to get away with sincere compliments in the initial stages, especially if they're not compliments about her looks. But it's probably not worth the risk. You could end up plummeting from bad boy to arse-kisser.

Bad boys appear to be totally oblivious to physical looks because they're so accustomed to being around beautiful girls. Women dig this.

Rule 3: Get the girl alone.
=====================
(Wherever you are, the place sucks.)

A highly critical eye toward your current locale immediately places you above it and every person there.

Don't fall for the following trap:

You: I don't really like this place.
Her: I think it's pretty good. I've seen worse. I come here often.
You: Hmm, I suppose it's OK. It seems like an exciting crowd. I like the music, and the DJs seem cool. You have many friends here?
Her: Yeah, speaking of which, I'd better go find them. See ya.

Instead do this:

You: I don't really like this place.
Her: I think it's pretty good. I've seen worse. I come here often.
You: Well, I still think it sucks. The place is a dump, and the music is getting on my nerves. I'm going to bail soon to a much better place. Come along if you want, but whatever.

Rule 4: Parallel her values.
======================
Rule 5: Relate to her.
=================

These two rules are based on the principle of similarity. We naturally feel drawn to those who are similar to us in some way.

That's why communication coaches teach the technique of physically mirroring your partner's posture, gestures, breathing, etc. Two people in deep rapport naturally mirror each other, so by working in reverse and mirroring your partner, you elicit deep rapport as a conditioned association.

But physical states aren't the only things that can be mirrored.

You can mirror word choice: If your partner appears to have a few pet words or phrases, start using them yourself.

You can mirror hobbies and interests: If a particular word or phrase seems to hint at an area of interest, you could raise the area of interest yourself at a later point, thus manufacturing coincidence. Or rather than using these words to mirror hobbies and interests, you could use them to ask open-ended questions and thus keep the conversation flowing, with fewer silent moments. These words hint at what the woman would like to talk about.

You can mirror past experiences (Rule 5): Relate to her.

Most powerful of all...

You can mirror beliefs and core values (Rule 4): Parallel her values.

These two rules go together.

If she's been somewhere, so have you. (experience)
If she remembers her first pet dying, so do you. (experience)
If she used to bite her nails, so did you. (experience)

If she's into a particular author, so are you. (hobby, interest)
If she's into 15th-century art, so are you. (hobby, interest)

If she's a vegetarian, so are you. (value)
If she's a feminist, so are you. (value)
If she's politically left-leaning, so are you. (value)
If she's a community volunteer, so are you -- or you at least demonstrate that you too appreciate altruism. (value)

And so on.

It helps to have a good general-knowledge bank from which to draw. Failing that, there are plenty of books around that have the cheatsheet motif -- including almanacs, compilations of miscellanies, trivia collections, idiots/dummies guides, and books on increasing one's cultural literacy. The frustrated nerds among you may feel relieved that your years of reading, library habitation, and autodidactic meandering have some practical value after all.

If you're conversing online, then essentially all you have to do is Google your way into her pants.

A word of caution: Don't be too obvious in your reflection of her word choice, hobbies/interests, experiences, and values. An overly excited "me too!" approach will quickly spell disaster. Master the art of insinuation, implication, allusion, and unaffected reference.

As an example of unaffected reference, here's how NOT to do it:

Her: I'm a huge fan of Stephen King's novels.
You: Oh my God! Me too! I've read all his books! He's awesome! What's your favourite?

Here's how to do it (with bonus non-needy push-away):

Her: I'm a huge fan of Stephen King's novels.
You: We probably wouldn't get along then.
Her: What? Why not?
You: I usually don't win friends among King fans. They're all about The Stand, The Shining, and It; whereas I found Carrie, Desperation, and Insomnia more fun to read. I see no reason to think you're any different.

Or to insinuate you've read all his books:

Her: I'm a huge fan of Stephen King's novels.
You: I'm not much of a fan these days. I kind of grew tired of waiting for his next novel to be released.

Or to insinuate you're deeply familiar with him and his influences (with bonus qualification test):

Her: I'm a huge fan of Stephen King's novels.
You: Then you're no doubt into Lovecraft and Poe as well. Hope you're not one of those gloomy, depressing types.

Mastering insinuation means mastering mystery and intrigue.

On RSVP, you can skim through a woman's profile and pick out a set of word choices, hobbies/interests, experiences, and values. Then you can mirror your own profile along those lines or, since profile review takes a bit of time, change your RSVP name to reflect similarity. If she's into cats, switch to a feline name such as CatLover, KittenLover, or PussyLover, and maybe throw up a pic of yourself with one of those stray cats that I previously advised you to use for your supermarket adventures. It's all about creating the right first impressions with your choice of name.

Rule 6: Lie, lie, and lie some more.
============================

This rule is the driving rule behind all the above rules.

As Dr. House reminds us, "Everyone lies."

By virtue of biological drives, every friendly or seemingly platonic interaction between a heterosexual man and a heterosexual woman is in some sense a big lie.

A guy who's naturally successful with women has a facade constructed from an innate playbook. He has an attraction persona that is as radically different from his true state as is his church-going persona or his meet-with-the-boss persona. It's all a big lie.

Whether the deception is natural or artificial, the art of love is the art of lying. Don't ever feel ashamed of your strategical and tactical maneuvering. All learning goes from unconscious incompetence to conscious incompetence to conscious competence to unconscious competence. Over time, your deception will be as unconscious, automatic, and natural as the next guy's.

BONUS TIPS
==========

You should allow the woman to do most of the talking. This allows you to fish out more verbal clues. It also places you in a more dominant position, since the person who talks the more is usually the person trying harder to impress and win approval. Your own talking should be restricted to, one, asking her open-ended questions based on what she's indicated she'd like to discuss; two, verbally mirroring her in the manner described above; and, three, answering any questions she throws your way. This is the secret of conversational charisma. Even though you've said virtually nothing, she'll remember you as a great conversationalist.

Don't be afraid of silent moments. Indeed, one way of determining whether a woman is interested in you is observing whether she reinitiates conversation after silent moments.

Don't reveal more than necessary. If you're an open book, you have very little appeal. Another way of determining whether a woman is interested in you is observing whether she herself requests certain pieces of information from you.

Acquaintances speak in terms of cliches and facts. Friends speak in terms of opinions. Lovers speak in terms of feelings and "we". Compare the following:

"Place XXX opened last Wednesday. Ever been there?" - facts
"I think place XXX totally rocks! What do you reckon?" - opinions
"We should check out place XXX. It feels so exciting and alive in there." - feelings/we

~~~

Hope you've all had a wonderful New Year.

OnlineDatingExpert

~~~

An index of previous advice installments:

http://blogs.rsvp.com.au/2007/11/first_impressions_do_count_1.html#19701

Posted by: onlinedatingexpert at January 4, 2008 1:09 PM

Jenjen - very funny joke, I like it and have heard a very similar one about women involving a long bridge. Funny thing is though that there seem to be several men like that on the blogs.... maybe several women too?

Posted by: woodnwine at January 4, 2008 12:46 PM

What hope is there ?? He he......

A woman was walking along the shores of the beach when she stumbled upon a an old looking lamp bottle. The woman picked up the bottole, rubbed some of the sand off it and out of the blue a genie appeared!

The stunned woman asked the genie if this meant that she got three wishes.

"Three wishes is only a fable," responded the genie. "You only get one wish. So what do you wish for?"

The woman did not hesitate.

"I want peace in the Middle East," she responded. "See this map? I want these countries to stop fighting with each other and I want all the Arabs to love the Jews and Americans and vice-versa. It will bring about world peace and harmony."

The genie looked at the map and exclaimed, "Lady, be reasonable. These countries have been at war for thousands of years. I'm out of shape after being in a bottle for five hundred years. I'm good but not that good! I don't think it can be done. Make another wish and please be reasonable."

The woman thought for a minute.

"Well, I've never been able to find the right man," she said. "You know, one that's considerate and fun, likes to cook and help with the house cleaning, loves kids and is great in bed, gets along with my family, doesn't watch sports all the time, and is faithful. That is what I wish for ... a good man."

The genie let out a deep sigh and said, "Let me see that map again..."

Posted by: jenjen57 at January 4, 2008 12:41 PM

Woodnwine...even your own children tend to leave you for a few years in their adolescence...just let her know, when you can, that you are there for her and always will be, and I know she will come back to you later on...my children both did...and now I can't get rid of them!

Happy New Year...missed your posting!

Posted by: istj54 at January 4, 2008 11:10 AM

An upbeat topic would be nice...

Posted by: slightsynchronicity at January 4, 2008 10:23 AM

WnW, they are going to post more Relationship Matters with a new podcast. For us to listen to, then comment on. There are 3 in the series. The topic about Myspace is open last I looked...Is RSVP better than Facebook etc. Last I looked another was open too.

jovial, my ex and his wife would not sit with the kids and I at a concert my daughter was in. We told them we would save a seat and they sat a few rows in front. It was all about ego maybe for them. It was awkward for me, as I was trying to be adult. Very awkward for my two other kids who then felt compelled to sit with the newcomers. Also I can not get him to come to Birthday BBQ's but always invite them to school and other events. I tell him about my 18 year olds band things, like CD launch. Do you think he has been to a gig? Not even when it was at 7.30. For his son, he could go once and wear earplugs. I am over him but just wanted you to know jovial that I do empathise. It is awful.

jenjen moving on is the key for sure. Acceptance of how things are with our lives and not harbouring resentment.

Posted by: slightsynchronicity at January 4, 2008 10:08 AM

The blending thing must be hard but not as hard as the un-blending. I still miss my stepdaughter as I rarely get to see her. I have no rights and she is a busy teenager. It must be even harder for children who have spent years living together to suddenly be seperated.

Posted by: woodnwine at January 4, 2008 8:35 AM

Riversong...I agree that it's really tough on the "blended" kids when things go south. My children really miss my ex's little boy whom they regarded as their "little brother" for five years. A year later they wonder about him still. His mother let me know she'd had trouble with his behaviour after the split, which is sad cos he is a great little guy. I miss him too!

Freshstart...it's tough making time to "date" when you have a young child (still tough with older ones!), and it is really hard knowing when to introduce them to the mix. I'm lucky in that mine are in their teens now and semi self-sufficient and really good at making up their own minds and articulating that. Your attitude is a good one....

Jovial, it's a shame you guys can't all sit together. My kids dad and I can get along (and do so for the kids), but he had a partner who just couldn't stand the fact we were still "friends". She even asked he give back the Christmas gift because I'd paid for it (it was from the kids). The only thing she succeeded in doing was alientating the kids (not a good thing!), and ultimately her jealousy was her downfall. It'd be nice if you could all get along, unrealistic for many, but the kids would benefit so much.....ahh always the Wishfulthinker!

Posted by: wishfulthinker03 at January 3, 2008 10:58 AM

Ah, what can I say, I am optimistic. I have decided on the philosophy of 'When you stop looking, you shall find what you are looking for'. This is my second time on RSVP. I previously met two guys, one I ended things with because of a conflict of life values, the second because I found out he was still trolling the site, and had been sleeping with someone else for our whole 4mth, gulp, relationship (for lack of a bette term...). There is my point. He went out of his way to spend time with my daughter, she got attached, then he did what he did...

But alas, we all live and learn. The biggest thing I got out of all this, apart from learning to keeping guys well away from my daughter, is that I no longer have a desire to find my picket fence. I was so caught up in finding Mr Right, that I didnt see the warning bells, and beleived the bulls*@t that was told to me. I have a new outlook, no longer feel the drive to find my white picket fence, and just want to expand my horizons, try this thing they call 'dat-ting', where you meet, get to know each other a decent period of time, move slowly, and avoid instant relationships. So, oh wise and worldly ones, how does this sound??

And by the way, I do read your blogs, and do take on board what you say. You can always learn something new! And I wish there were more of you wise gentlemen out there! It is nice to read what you say, and learn that men too grow up eventually...

Posted by: freshstart83 at January 3, 2008 2:43 AM

freshstart83

Thank you :) nice to put a face to the blog :) Maybe the blokes here will be able to give you some insights into their perspective on this for you. Must be lots of nice single young men out there !! For some of them maybe they feel a small child complicates things........they certainly slow us down a bit, I remember those days :)

Posted by: jenjen57 at January 3, 2008 2:18 AM

I was wondering what guys views ARE on dating women with children? I have a 5yo daughter, Posted by: freshstart83 at January 3, 2008 12:28 AM

I for one have never had a problem with that up till now, and even now it may not be all that bad.

Apart from my wife, i have had 3 reasonably long term relationships with women with kids. The last ending about 18mnths ago.
It was always refreshing, but it took along time to be accepted by them, which also was ok, cos i am not the pushy type.

It depends largely on how they talk, accept, and relate to you. If it comes easily to them then i feel it can be all good.

If there is angst , for whatever reason then it can be tough, because initially you were attracted to their mother, not them.
The last of the three, that i have had, is ok, cos I love the x's daughter, as if she were my own. I dont get to see her much, but she knows how i feel, and she is only 14 , so its not too cool for me to interfere, but she knows that I am around.

Posted by: twoeyes at January 3, 2008 1:12 AM

How to be happily single and move on.............
It's different for everyone. Try making a long list of all the things that make you happy, and make sure that you do at least some of them regularly.
Stay in touch with your friends, keep all your lines of communication open, and get out and about.
Don't rush into looking for someone new, most people can smell desperation a mile off, and it isn't attractive

Posted by: jenjen57 at January 3, 2008 12:44 AM

Whatididforlove are you sure that you are not auntykaz in disguise???
Our experiences with ex husbands and the females they had affairs with are certainly in the same vein from what you describe.

The credibility of my marriage may have been fatally wounded prior to that happening but the right thing to do would have been for him to start a relationship with her after it had finished, not during the final stages.

And this is a man who in all seriousness thinks that l will be friends with him and her......the sheer stupidity is breathtaking...............K

Posted by: auntykaz at January 3, 2008 12:41 AM

In reply to Jovial67 and WnW, I think it is hard to get over someone that you loved, especially when things ended badly. But I look at it like this- no matter what happened last time, you can always learn something from it. Look for the lesson, learn it, and move on. If we are always looking back, how can we find a future?

Posted by: freshstart83 at January 3, 2008 12:39 AM

WnW
Ouch, I can relate (in part at least) to your last post. My ex was my first true love, and yes it can take time to bounce back. As much as I keep telling myself that I'm over it, I do think there is still more healing to be done.

Posted by: jovial67 at January 3, 2008 12:31 AM

Hi. I have a question along the lines of what you have all been discussing. I was wondering what guys views ARE on dating women with children? I have a 5yo daughter, and have stated this in the specifics of my profile (which is currently hidden until I move to Toowoomba and update it). I am 24, and have noticed that the majority of guys up to 30ish state that they want to meet women with NO CHILDREN. Why is this? Is it because women with kids are viewed as being unable to be spontaneous, that the child will always be around, or do they think that we are only after a father figure? Or are they not wanting to get attached to kids and things not work out? I am just wanting to know what the big deal is. Or does it come down to the 'young single mother' stereotype, that if you had a child young then you are somehow undesirable, despite having a university degree and a fulfulling life? Any replys and insights would be much appreciated!!

Posted by: freshstart83 at January 3, 2008 12:28 AM

woodnwine................you are back out there, you are here :) It is harder I guess if you are the one who didnt want things to end. But as someone posted the other day, the person of our dreams often appears when we least expect it. Its all about being open to new possibilities isnt it ? And of all the men I have met in the last two years the ones I have liked the most have been the ones who, on profile anyway, have not been "my type". But yes, it is hard to bounce back sometimes for some of us.

Posted by: jenjen57 at January 3, 2008 12:22 AM

What do you do to get back out there? If your last relationship was one you didn't want to end how can someone else replace the person you wanted to be with? How can someone else measure up? I don't know yet, I think this is very hard indeed. Some people bounce back quickly, others don't.
WnW

Posted by: woodnwine at January 3, 2008 12:12 AM

very good point, riversong1. How hard should it be?

and woodnwine - I misinterpreted your comments, and just needed to clarify myself.

cheers all

Posted by: today122 at January 3, 2008 12:06 AM

in my case I will never, ever accept into my life in any shape or form the person who disrespected me my marriage, my children and our emotional and financial security and happiness by having an affair with my husband.
Posted by: whatididforlove at January 2, 2008 11:55 PM

Well said. I refuse to ever breathe the same air as her. Despite the fact that there were HUGE and probably unresolveable problems between us, no one else has the right to poke their nose, or anything else, into someone elses marriage.

Posted by: jenjen57 at January 3, 2008 12:05 AM

whatididforlove - I hear what you are saying and agree that infidelity is unacceptable under any circumstances. That must make things very hard for you.
WnW

Posted by: woodnwine at January 3, 2008 12:02 AM

When you recombine in a second marriage, it's not just the couple, but everyone around that gets affected. We had quite a time just trying to work out the labels and interrelations at our first "family" Christmas - brothers/sisters, half siblings, step children, aunties, step-uncles, great grandmother-in-law etc. Well, now just add "ex" into the mix!! It was really sad for me and my sons to break up with my stepdaughters after splitting from their dad.

I think it's important for mature divorced people to realise that our new relationships affect not only ourselves, but our whole families - it's a much bigger responsibility than just two young single people hooking up - the equation includes all of the kids who "marry" into the family as well.

Posted by: riversong1 at January 2, 2008 11:59 PM

woodnwine, I think that how people react to accept new partners has a lot to do with timing and circumstances.

For instance in my case I will never, ever accept into my life in any shape or form the person who disrespected me my marriage, my children and our emotional and financial security and happiness by having an affair with my husband.

I can only be pleased that my children were at an age where they had a choice in the matter.

If my ex had left the marriage prior to commencing another relationship then I would have no trouble accepting that person.

Posted by: whatididforlove at January 2, 2008 11:55 PM

whatididforlove its true that we do things after we have separated that in all probability we would not have prior.

I know that l have done a lot of things and experienced the same since being a singleton.

I would not have even thought of most of the things l have done if l was still married as l was very much under the thumb, much to my now dismay.

Funny how things turn out at times............K

Posted by: auntykaz at January 2, 2008 11:44 PM

jovial67 - I am sorry to hear that but maybe with time things will improve. I have to admit it took me a while to get used to my stepdaughter's father being around but I learned to put her first and then found that we had things in common and could share a drink and have a chat. I always invited him to come into the house and go to his daughter's bedroom rather than stand on our doorstep.
WnW

Posted by: woodnwine at January 2, 2008 11:44 PM

auntykaz...........that is your good parenting that they have grown to be confident in their relationships. I am winging it the best I can :)). No one teaches us how to deal with these emotional train wreck situations nor how to be a good parent, but I love them , spend time with them and they know they are the most important people in my life.

Posted by: jenjen57 at January 2, 2008 11:40 PM

woodnwine I did not forego my happiness at all but instead used the time to work out what sort of person I wanted to be ,and then took myself off on a journey of self discovery doing and achieving all sorts of things which probably would never have happened if I had remained married.

The initial reaction after a long relationship (and I think this is true for most people) is to want to make the world right again by finding a replacement partner to enable you to stay in a social comfort zone. The fear of being alone is great at first. I am so glad that I did not find someone at that time or I would not have grown much as a person and had the opportunity to really develop myself as a person, nor maintained the relationship with my children.

Now I feel that I actually have something to offer a new partner(other than my great cooking ability!)
The last few years have ,if anything, been some of the happiest of my life.

The chances of finding four mature adults with no jealousy or other issues involved and two sets or more of children that fit in perfectly is remote.
In my opinion children are children and should not be asked or even thinking about what is right for their adult parents.

Posted by: whatididforlove at January 2, 2008 11:37 PM

today122 - I wasn't in any way criticising you, just saying what you have experienced should be unnecessary if your ex was more mature. I went to many sporting events and sat next to my stepdaughter's father and chatted with him. I visited his house and invited him into ours'. I told her to make sure she invited him to her 18th party at my house (long story) and all this I think gave her a balanced view of modern relationships. I hope one day I will have someone new and significant to introduce her to.
WnW

Posted by: woodnwine at January 2, 2008 11:37 PM

How much of this stuff is due to insecurity on the part of the new partner? Jealousy at the past life of their partner?

Posted by: today122 at January 2, 2008 11:35 PM

My ex has remarried but is very protective of her new husband with regards to contact with me. Not sure why. Because of this, she and her hubby will not sit with me at children's concerts/plays etc even if my kids are sitting next to me. It hurts me to see the looks on their faces when this happens. I have raised this with my ex and was told that if the kids don't like it, it's their problem. So much for putting the kid's need before your own....

Posted by: jovial67 at January 2, 2008 11:32 PM

wishfulthinker03 - that's good - love your children more than you dislike your ex. Easy of course!! But it is easy and much more so if there is no continuing angst and nastiness and manipulation. Someone further down said that they will eventually realise, and they are, especially now that I don't try to protect everyone any more. They are intelligent aware intuitive girls, and my stepping out of the way is allowing them to figure it out for themselves. Maybe it will take years, and maybe not till they have their own children, and maybe not at all, but it's not up to me anymore.

Posted by: today122 at January 2, 2008 11:30 PM

Jenjen l don't sweat the stuff with the kids and their dad. Not any more.

They are mature ones, my kids, when it comes to him and the difficulties they have with their father they handle themselves, they are both very confident and speak their mind.

I have raised them to be outspoken and stick up for themselves and their friends. And trust me they do...............K

Posted by: auntykaz at January 2, 2008 11:21 PM

wnw - I had no problem with his new partner. She was not for me to judge.
What I could not "support" was our children and their needs being so secondary to his new relationship. Or to "support" my having to pick up the pieces with them all over again.
If he/she are so threatened by my presence due to us being parents together of these children, then that is very sad, but not of my doing. Any thought of "extended" family that I may have had disappeared totally, along with my being able to protect my children forever from his self-absorption and bitterness.
I take full responsibility for my actions, but couldn't continue to take responsibility for his.

Posted by: today122 at January 2, 2008 11:19 PM

A very good friend told me a simple thing, "Love your children more than you dislike your ex", and that helps get through some of the tough times, especially when the kids are playing one off against the other. Thankfully I don't have that problem, I'm lucky there. My kids see their Dad most days and if not, they talk to him. He is involved as much as he wants to be (still wont come to sporting events etc. which are a huge part of kid life).

My pair were very accepting of my last relationship (5 years), and were devastated when it went south, more so because they saw him take a swing at me one night and that shattered their illusions. However, they were not at all accepting of their father's girlfriend, came home with the most amazing "tales", (often hilarious from my point of view), but they did behave and treat her with civility - which made me proud.

Posted by: wishfulthinker03 at January 2, 2008 11:12 PM

Today122 – yes a lot of sadness out there but you know what? We are surviving. Not just surviving but becoming stronger and better because of the experiences we have had. I, and I reckon just about everyone else on these blogs (as you all come across as such strong, positive people) have moved forward and those of us with children have helped move them forward, too. I like your condom story! It is disconcerting but heartening when you can interact with your children as adults, isn’t it?

WoodnWine, I hear where you are coming from and certainly kids’ feelings should be taken into account.

Talking about that brings to my mind that, rightly or wrongly, I didn’t always pretend with my kids that everything was rosy. I’m not a big fan of always putting on a brave face and suppressing my own feelings for the sake of the kids. They could see through that, anyway and I think they appreciated seeing my ‘humanness’.

Posted by: ninaschen at January 2, 2008 11:08 PM

I don't have children of my own (only a stepdaughter) but personally I can't understand why anyone wouldn't want to be involved (positively) in the upbringing of their own child/children. Call me naieve (spell check please). Simply amazing!!!
WnW

Posted by: woodnwine at January 2, 2008 11:07 PM

jenjen - no, sadly, people don't usually change, but you can't blame your daughter for wishing. I can relate to how she feels as my dad wasn't around for me either. So, keep on keeping on, it's nothing personal against you (although I sometimes have trouble remembering that myself).
That's it for me for tonight. Night y'all.

Posted by: archerrising at January 2, 2008 10:59 PM

whatididforlove - I like your ideals and your sense of responsibility to your children but many 2nd marriages can enhance a child's life with mature input from all the adults involved. Children understand more than you perhaps give them credit for and don't expect you to forego your own happiness to bring them up responsibly.
WnW

Posted by: woodnwine at January 2, 2008 10:56 PM

Posted by: mstingle at January 2, 2008 9:45 PM

hi misstingle, hope your festive and New Year was relaxing and of course a nice time to spend with your loved ones. Cheekily I answered Bob's post which was addressed to you...sorry. Oh and I misunderstood as I thought all your children were much younger than my own. Mine are 16 going on 21, 18 going on 30 and my daughter is 19 going on 31 I guess. Daughter has just moved out and no "empty next syndrome" yet. Of course every thing would have to be weighed up regarding a potential partner. As the boys could move out in a few years or so...the idea of passing up a lifetimes happiness with a partner does not seem sensible speaking only for myself. I brought up the kids by self (with minimal input from their dad, his loss - ditto Jen) since the youngest was 3 and have been decicated to my kids. I would till would be there for my kids with a partner. I chose to be with out a boyfriend for the last 5 years, largely due to the kids. Hopefully I will meet someone the kids will like and will cross that bridge when I come to it. Previously I have been an expert on missed opportunities with a man or two and do not intend to repeat that pattern. Some of this blog reading is quite heart rending. Nothing I say is a personal attack on anyone of course.
cheers : ))

Posted by: slightsynchronicity at January 2, 2008 10:54 PM

oops - great comments! Also I have come to learn from my girls after angsting for ages about whether they and I would be comfortable meeting, that they genuinely want me to be happy and are very supportive of my dating! It is rather fun, as they are now open with me about their dating...

Posted by: alady7 at January 2, 2008 10:51 PM

archerrising..........I think you could be right. Rose coloured glasses and wishful thinking. On the rare occasion he does call her she is so happy and tells me he has changed and that he is different now, but if that were true he would be in regular contact as he lives not far away. To be honest, in some ways, apart from the grief it causes the kids, I am glad there is limited contact and that he has not sought contact orders as I am afraid he might hurt them physically again. Those sort of leopards never change their spots do they ??

Posted by: jenjen57 at January 2, 2008 10:50 PM

Blame - now there is a good topic. If we crash our car we look for someone else to blame, if we make a mistake at work we look for someone else to blame. Human nature? I think we need a change of paradigm.

Don't blame others. I seperated from my wife but I don't hate her, we just didn't work together and I don't have "many" bad words to say about her and certainly not to her daughter. I just met one of the most wonderful women I have ever met in my life but she didn't think things would work. I will never say a bad word about her, there was no blame that I couldn't accept myself.

I think we need to take responsibility for our own actions and it's a pity some of our exes won't do the same. If there is blame to take, take it - don't blame others, at the end of the day where will it get you? Win the battle but lose the war?
WnW

Posted by: woodnwine at January 2, 2008 10:46 PM

In my opinion there is nothing sadder than the plight of children (who are powerless to make lifestyle choices woodnwine, and have no say in their parents choices and just have to accept whatever comes) who have to endure being bundled around sometimes multiple times to accommodate parents "relationships."

In the process they are often expected to accept blending of lives, possibly with the new partners children, not to mention ideas and rules, and then forget about those bonds formed if that relationship then ends.

I think if you have children then they should come first until they are old enough(at least mid teens) to

a) have experienced a secure, safe stable and unconfused childhood

b) understand their identity and formed good relationships with their extended family( as it is these foundations of stability which will set them up for happiness in their future)

c) be old enough to express how they feel and be able to work through it if necessary.

I made the decision to have children and I saw that as meaning being responsible for them and their well being until they are no longer vulnerable.

The maintaining of a feeling of absolute security in a rock solid family unit for my childrens sense of belonging and identity was paramount to me, and has paid off so much.

None of us had to endure any of the trauma's or pain or threats brought in by trying to blend a new person into the mix(the pain of divorce and loss of a father was enough)
My children are grown and happy and we will be there for each other more than I would rely on any future partner to be.

I didn't feel deprived as I had the love of my children and my extended family and friends, and life was without lots of the unhappiness brought about by being torn by trying to introduce new people as new 'family'(and blending into theirs)
I think the term 'blended family' is a bit of a joke as rarely is it the case.

Now is my time to do whatever I like(and I am) I am so pleased that I can offer to share a happy life not one rife with 'family problems' or strained and broken relationships.
I also look for a man who has maintained a good relationship with his children and family by being unselfish and putting their needs first for a short while.

The idea that a father(or mother) is one ,no matter what, is a lie if they have removed themselves from a childs life when they are needed most.
In that case they are nothing more than the donor of genetic material.

jenjen you can't stop them feeling rejected ,as that is what has happened. Don't keep making excuses for his behaviour, just reassure them that you love them and will never abandon them no matter what. They will have to come to terms with their father in their own time. It is very sad, and very common.
They will know that you stood by them and love you all the more when they are old enough to realise the enormity of the situation you have been put in.
They might even blame you for at some stage for "letting it happen" or "causing him ot leave" but rest assured they will see the truth eventually.

Posted by: whatididforlove at January 2, 2008 10:42 PM

jenjen - it is the ideal father that your daughter misses as opposed to her actual father. When she doesn't see him, she can idealise him and forget the bad parts of what he was actually like.

Posted by: archerrising at January 2, 2008 10:42 PM

hello all - what an interesting continuation of the blog! I have enjoyed reading all the grewat comments.

today122 and ninaschen: yes, I can completely relate to where you are coming from with children. My ex didnt have much to do with my girls after separation 4 years ago - the eldest, now 18, sees him because she forced the issue, but the youngest 15, doesnt as he wont even bother to ring. I have worried so much about them missing out, when in fact they now seem to have adjusted to it and cope so well - this is their life.

In the last year, the eldest is finding it harder as he wont go out of his way to communicate or see her - she has had to make all the effort. And like you today122, my ex tried to 'replace' me in his family events and day to day happenings with his new partner, to the point of ordering his family not to invite me to any gatherings. Luckily his family (who are some of my best friends) didnt put up with his nonsense, but unfortunately it has resulted in his 'breakaway' from the family. I know it is doing, but I had massive guilt issues for a while.

WnW - it is wonderful to see that there are truly good men out there... thanks!

Posted by: alady7 at January 2, 2008 10:41 PM

today122 - yes, I still cop a bit of what you're describing, but I don't think my kids really mean it - as you say I'm just the one that's close and therefore handy to blame. I try to focus on the good stuff - we recently went away together for a week and it was just like old times :) We really had a ball. I know that as they grow and mature our relationship will strengthen even more.

Posted by: archerrising at January 2, 2008 10:39 PM

ninaschen..........something to look forward to then :)...........I am just going with the flow as best I can and am just glad that at least things are relatively peaceful now, as he was a mean spirited, angry and violent person. My daughters angst over the absence of her father has me a bit mystified to be honest as when he was here she would not stay home alone with him as she was terrified of his unpredictable black moods..........

Posted by: jenjen57 at January 2, 2008 10:38 PM

today122 - this is very sad when people put their own egos before the interest of their children. I have seen this first hand and it is not good, it makes you wonder who are the adults. People who have seperated or divorced need to remember that their chidrens's feelings are more important than theirs. They should even, I believe, support their exes choice of new partners, anything that maintains happiness in the extended family. Childish behaviour is for children not adults.
WnW

Posted by: woodnwine at January 2, 2008 10:35 PM

hi again
just read back some of these posts. A lot of sadness out there. One of my things for always was that I couldn't provide my girls with the sort of stability and security I really hoped for them, and the lack of "protection" from the real nasty world that they were given.
My girls blamed me for a long time, and I took it, for a long time. A consequence of my marriage, and as their mother, both they and I believed that I should have been able to "fix" everything for them. I was also easier to blame because I was closer to them and more honest and stronger.
I was also blamed for not stopping the 21st celebrations that I spoke of!?
But our relationship together now is strong and supportive and growing. Sometimes too honest - anyone care to hear that condoms are not readily available in Indonesia? oh dear.
And we allow each other our lives now. And if I am seeing someone they're pleased for me, they genuinely want me to be happy and they don't want to be the cause of my not progressing in my life. They're older now, no issues of dependence on either side, and now very accepting of the choices that I make, as I am of theirs.

Posted by: today122 at January 2, 2008 10:33 PM

13 is a tough time for kids, JenJen, especially for girls, as we know. She needs something, anything, to be angry about. Her father not being around is an easy focus to latch on to. I'm not trying to trivialise her feelings but at that age, her emotions are magnified.

It will get easier. Trust me. I had the 13 year old from hell and she is now an intelligent, opinionated 23 year old from hell (kidding - she is delightful).

Posted by: ninaschen at January 2, 2008 10:27 PM

Hi Everyone....some great comments,
I've come to the conclusion that the old saying-"Lovers come and go but true friendships last a lifetime" is spot on!
I now value my true friends more than ever....I believe these people will be the ones that are still there in my old age!

Posted by: brilliantblue at January 2, 2008 10:26 PM

WnW - you're right, and it wasn't that he was the good time guy towards his kids that cut me up, it was that when his kids had gone, he wanted mine "out of the way" so he could have me to himself.

Posted by: archerrising at January 2, 2008 10:25 PM

Greetings and here's hoping you all have a wonderful 2008. My first time here so be gentle and I hope my blog offends no one.

I have read some of the blogs that have been posted on different topics and admire you all for being where you are at on your journey through life. I am a father of 4 (2 girls 21 and 18 and 2 boys 16 and 14). Their mother passed away a little over 9 years ago now and I have been doing the sole parent thing for that time. Now I'm no expert on either parenthood or dating but I thought I'd post my 2 cents worth on the off chance that I might be able to offer some help.

We are taught many things at school and through life but but nothing through my childhood or adolescence prepared me for what life has thrown at me. It is daunting just considering dating again after a split/loss of a partner whether your children are young, teenagers or young adults. I used to think it would be great if there was a book of answers to guide us through these issues we face but everybody is different and so are our children. I have dated women without kids (went through a selfish stage where I didn't want the extra responsibility of having to worry about anothers children) but found that some people without their own, don't know how to get involved with kids. I have dated women with children and found myself doing more for and with their children than I did with my own and more than the partner at the time did with mine, then there was the other end where the partner found a need to communicate with my eldest daughter about me instead of communicating with me. As I said, I'm no expert and in many cases was the one who was wearing the blinkers and was somewhat inconsiderate, nor am I trying to give the impression that I have been in NUMEROUS relationships.

As for children and their feelings towards ones prospective partner, it is my opinion that children have to be considerate to their parents feelings when it comes to love - as we try to be with theirs.

It is definitely an interesting topic and I don't know if there is a right or wrong answer but I believe this is one of lifes lessons - learning to be respectful towards others feelings, emotions and opinions.

Cheers to all,
Ian.

Posted by: tattsfantastic at January 2, 2008 10:24 PM

hi. interesting conversation this evening.

2 years after my separation, my ex unwittingly, apparently!, "replaced" me as the "care giver" to my children with his new partner, to the extent of day to day and significant family events for my children that she/he arranged, like my daughter’s 21st, to the exclusion of these children's mother. Fact. Manipulation or whatever, or final vindictiveness, dismissing or maligning me, I have no idea who was behind these decisions, I've spent too much energy and emotion on this one. Massive issues of trust and guilt for the girls and me that took a long time to heal.
And he just didn't get it, then or now.
One of the causes behind our split was his long term lack of attention or supposed interest in his daughters. Ironic.

Posted by: today122 at January 2, 2008 10:17 PM

archerrising - I think you need to understand that if a man only has his kids every 2nd weekend he is going to be the "good time guy" and take no responsibility - you can't blame him for that, I didn't as the stepdad. My stepdaughter's future was far more important to me than her liking me. However, give your children credit - if you have raised them correctly they are far more intelligent and intuitive than you may give them credit for. I for one hope so.

Also, it is far better for children to be raised in a happy single parent family than an unhappy 2 parent family. When I split with my wife 2 years ago I appologised to my stepdaughter and she replied that she understood what was going on - not bad for a 17 year old. I was proud of her.
WnW

Posted by: woodnwine at January 2, 2008 10:13 PM

woodnwine

It says a lot about the sort of person he is, doesnt it !! Just sad the kids are the ones to suffer and I wonder what sort of relationships they will have as adults with all those subconscious hurts resentments and insecurities they must be harbouring.

Posted by: jenjen57 at January 2, 2008 10:12 PM

Spot on, Bob. Separate abodes should be a given, when children are involved, I think. Actually, separate abodes for couples is a great idea too, methinks! It could keep some of the excitement in a relationship.

Posted by: ninaschen at January 2, 2008 10:10 PM

ninaschen

Yes it is heartbreaking. The 19 yr old realises its not my fault and is angry at his Dad only, but the 13 yr old finds it so difficult to cope with. When she gets upset about it all she often aims her anger at me and blames me for her fathers absence, that if I was different (how I am not sure !!) he would call her ........in reality he can call her anytime he likes on her mobile, he just chooses not to. It has been over 2 years so I just hope things will get better over time and that they will learn to live with his disinterest. But yes, it breaks my heart to watch their oh so visible pain.

Posted by: jenjen57 at January 2, 2008 10:08 PM

WnW - I still sometimes mourn the fact that my kids missed out on what you describe because I was silly enough to hang around hoping my former partner would get his emotions sorted out. But it's a bit like what ninaschen said in that I suffer for what I perceive my kids miss/ed out on, whilst they seem to be okay about it.

Posted by: archerrising at January 2, 2008 10:04 PM

jenjen - I have no idea why a man would willingly miss out on the upbringing and development of his own children. It is certainly his loss, more fool him.
WnW

Posted by: woodnwine at January 2, 2008 10:03 PM

archerrising - I think that the right man will respect the fact that it is his responsibility to do his best to fit in with your children and hopefully it will work. If I take on another woman, I will take on everything to do with her, her children, her parents, her job, her problems - it will be my privilege to share all of that with her, after all it is what makes her what she is.
WnW

Posted by: woodnwine at January 2, 2008 9:59 PM

mstingle - I think children should be happy about their parent's happiness whilst still respecting that both parents (presuming they are both alive) deserve their respect, concerns and affection. I think these days most children can accept that not all marriages work out and most have their parents' best interests at heart.
WnW

Posted by: woodnwine at January 2, 2008 9:53 PM

JenJen - It's heartbreaking, isn't it, thinking your children are going through that pain? I always felt so responsible and guilty because mine only had, ostensibly, one parent. When they were younger, I was constantly checking with them to see how they were faring with the rejection. One day, the wise one said "mum, this is my life, this is just the way it is, I accept it. You don't have to feel bad, I'm happy" or words to that effect. I realised then that I was agonising too much about their 'fatherlessness'. They coped with it much better than I did.

Posted by: ninaschen at January 2, 2008 9:53 PM

WnW - I like the sentiments you have expressed here in relation to raising kids. My ex-husband is all care, no responsibility and my former partner only thought *his* kids were special. So it's nice to see not all men are like that!

Having said that, now that my kids are teenagers, I don't think I would cease a relationship with a man (should the unlikely ever actually happen!!) just because they didn't much like him.

Posted by: archerrising at January 2, 2008 9:51 PM

slightsynchronicity at January 2, 2008 7:48 PM

If my children did not like my new man, it would not be an instant dismissal. I would listen to them and I would expect them to, well the 16 year old at any rate to tell me exactly why she was apposed to me having a relationship with who ever it was. There would have to be pretty good reasons for me to end a relationship and not that my child was jealous of a new person coming into my life and taking up some of my time. Being open to your children about possibly dating someone and that there may or may not be someone in the future to share my time with is very important, I don't think you should just spring someone on them. My 16 year old is all for me finding someone but of course I don't really know how she will react until the time comes. However if a new man comes into my life he does not get top priorty, niether do my children, my relationship with all of them is different and hopefully what ever situation happens, that I will resolve issues that arise with a level head. My children deserve my love and respect but so does my new partner. I will not end a relationship just because my children just dont like someone, there has to be a good reason to call it off, otherwise no matter what man I brought into my life they could have a problem with it. Just a I would not put up with jealousy from my children over a new partner, i would not put up with jealous from my new partner over my children.

Good to hear by the way that you had a nice relaxing time over the new year, may 2008 be a good one for you.

Posted by: mstingle at January 2, 2008 9:45 PM

A friend once said children are with you for the first 20 odd years of their life but a good partner is with you every day until death. Children are wonderful and very rewarding but a good partner will be there to support, comfort and adore you every day for life. I think in this day and age children should be accepting of their parents life choices as parents should be accepting of their children's life choices. It goes both ways.
WnW

Posted by: woodnwine at January 2, 2008 9:36 PM

Thanks, ArcherRising. Yep. They have turned out okay. The way my daughter's mind works, blows mine away! She runs rings around me.

And Bob, I wouldn't worry too much about not relating to kids. I don't relate that well to other people's either. Or at least, not until they are at the young adult stage, or beyond. Just because someone is a parent, it doesn't mean they feel parental to them all. I have had it up to here with some little darlings!

Yeah, Kaz. She is sharp. Fortunately, the dour German gene (mine, by the way) skipped her!

Posted by: ninaschen at January 2, 2008 9:30 PM

PS It would make me feel very proud and fulfilled to play a small part in another child's life if the opportunity presented itself.
WnW

Posted by: woodnwine at January 2, 2008 9:30 PM

Hi guys
I raised my stepdaughter from age 6 to 18, having known her since she was 5. Initially she called me Dad but I explained to her that I wasn't her Dad. As she grew I had take the disciplinary role as her mother worked long hours and her father just wanted to have fun and that was hard. At times she hated me but she has turned out to be a very well sorted, beautiful young woman with a steady relationship and a good record at University. Children are wonderful, no matter whose they are and they can make you feel very proud.
WnW

Posted by: woodnwine at January 2, 2008 9:28 PM

auntykaz and ninaschen........what is it with some men ?? My exhusband is the same.........rarely has contact with his children (13 and 19) and doesnt seem to care how they feel about that. How do you stop them taking it personally and feeling rejected unloved and unwanted (by him) ??

Posted by: jenjen57 at January 2, 2008 9:26 PM

auntykaz at January 2, 2008 6:28 PM

WWI and WWII my grandparents and parents in England, my brothers much older than I were all born in England one never left, one still there. Amazing what they went throught for thier children and interesting seeing how my siblings and myself turned out.

Posted by: mstingle at January 2, 2008 9:17 PM

La Nina, my kids see their father very rarely but he is still their father and no one will ever take that place....
Pity he doesn't see it that way but that is his loss.

Nina, wise one , at least that girl of yours has a sense of humour........................K

Posted by: auntykaz at January 2, 2008 9:09 PM

Ninaschen,

It is an interesting thing about kids and parents...they may not see a parent ever again, but they are still their parent.

Cohabitation can cause all sorts of poblems, so I personally think that having separate places probably works for most relationships with kids because you are kept at arms length until circumstances change (ie they get to know the partner better or lose that fear of replacement).

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 8:20 PM

ninaschen - you have managed to make an amusing story out of a very sad experience. Well done, I bet your kids turned out to be great people.

Posted by: archerrising at January 2, 2008 8:15 PM

SSC,

I think kids are like the rest of us; they make judgement calls based upon their own perceptions. How could they know really what your boyfriends were like and what you saw in them?

I would guarantee that most kids would not like me; but that doesn't make me a bad person. I have no experience with kids and do not relate well to them (until they get into their late teens, at the earliest) because I am awkward in their presence.

I think parents need to be put their kids straight before they go into any sort of relationship because there is that fear of replacement of another parent (or themselves).

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 8:04 PM

Interesting discussion you have started, NotGodsGift. My kids were 7 and 9 (now 21 and 23) when my ex and I split. I have had very few relationships since then. The kids didn't deliberately sabotage any potentials, apart from when my slightly outrageous daughter, with a twinkle in her eye, told one rather straight-laced potential that her ambition was to be a pole dancer (she was 13 at the time).

But they baulked at the thought of anyone wanting to be their father. They already had one. They have only seen him once in 14 years and he hasn't contacted them for 7 so we were very much a one-parent family and they liked it that way. It was peaceful(ish).

Now they have moved out and it is just me and the dog. If anyone out there wants to volunteer to be a father figure to the spotted one (and have me thrown in as a bonus), I am taking applications!

Posted by: ninaschen at January 2, 2008 8:00 PM

Posted by: notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 4:46 PM

Hi MsTingle,

What would you do if you met the most awesome guy in all ways, but your children would not accept him? Would you continue to see him or would you end it?"

This exact situation happened to a friend of my Mums! Sorry, this was directed at misstingle. My Mum's friend, a lovely lady in her 60's broke up with the man she wanted to marry. He was a very lovely man and they were very much in love and because one 20 something child did not like him, decided to call it off. I thought it was the saddest thing. What if he was the love of her life? etc. Twice I had a boyfriends my children could not stand. It made it difficult. Now they are all teenagers, I think if I was deeply in love with someone and vice-versa, I would chose the man I loved and not be swayed by my children's likes and dislikes (I hope). My teenagers do their own thing a lot and I am there for them. I think its time for me too and teenagers sometimes leave home one day. We also have to think of ourselves. My kids are good judges of characters funnily enough. I am reading all the other posts too, not just yours Bob.

Posted by: slightsynchronicity at January 2, 2008 7:48 PM

Hi SSC,

I agree, people put things in their profiles for their own reasons and others attempting to interpret that is not practical.

Sometimes we get coloured by our own disappointments so we say a person is a player when they may not be. Its sort of like that site "dontdatehimgirl" that the women here discuss. How dangerous is it that a perfectly innocent guy has his reputation destroyed by a vindictive person? I am sure there are some very nasty types on that site, but I am also sure that a few innocent guys are there too.

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 7:45 PM

MsTingle,

Dont fret, I was just being a smartarse!!! Most of the women that check me out are interstate too; I'm guessing they are bloggers or blog viewers in the main.

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 7:36 PM

Posted by: notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 2:33 PM

Hi Bob, a comment I made about some men in their 40s and 50s wanting kids (a second attempt at kids if they "lost" the first kids to the ex, in the split) was based on what I noticed some men wrote in profiles. Also my view is coloured by people I know personally, who are in their second and further marriages. However I really have mainly spoke with female friends about having them having had children a bit later in life. (Post 46 years of age). There is no point generalising. I was thinking of changing my age requirement to 18-100, sometime People of the same age are not identical. In my life, lots of my friends are in their 20s and 30s due to uni.

Bloggers were speaking a while back about musical tastes. I could not be with a staid person of any age : ) Someone who did not "get" any of the music I am into - that would be hard.(Am into way more music that is on the profile). Height...I prefer my height or taller but nothing is set in stone.

today122, the meditative New Years reflection was not scary, just thinking about it was beforehand. The candles were real nice. My friend just felt like doing something different, but there was no running around in the garden beating chests. The men did not go tribal. Am probably the world's laziest meditator.

Posted by: slightsynchronicity at January 2, 2008 7:25 PM

notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 5:21 PM

good post - very wise response.

jenjen57 at January 2, 2008 6:30 PM

I think you've got a great balance there between looking after yourself and your needs and also respecting your kids' opinions.

Posted by: archerrising at January 2, 2008 7:09 PM

Yes it changes the dynamics completely when you add your kids to the mix doesnt it. Personally, if I like someone enough to see them more than twice then I am quite happy to introduce them to the children (although at 13 19 and 24 they are hardly children I guess !!). They all still live at home, plus the 23 yr olds boyfriend, so I value their input. And while my relationship with my children is separate from any new romantic relationship, if they all took an instant dislike to the new bloke I would have to rethink the new relationship. Maybe they see/feel something that I have missed. And also I am not sure I would want to keep someone whose children didnt like me.

Posted by: jenjen57 at January 2, 2008 6:30 PM

My grandmother was widowed in 1938 in England with 6 children aged 4 - 14.

No such thing as Government assistance in those days and when she approached her church for assistance she was refused on the grounds that my grandfather was not of the same church / religion, despite the fact that mum and her 5 siblings had attended that same church all their lives.(won't go there just laying the scene.)

My grandmother never entertained the thought of another man in her life and devoted herself to working and providing for her kids from then on.

The Second World War made things extremely difficult for them especially when the areas around them were being bombed, but her children all survived intact and went on to live good lives.

She died when l was 2 and l think she was in her mid 60's, poor love was worn out and living with my mum and dad and me as far as l know.

My point, and yes l do have one is that her kids came first and no one could ever take the place of her husband in her life, and no one ever did.
But how hard would it have been for her both emotionally and financially especially during the war years, and then to have such a hard life after it?................K

Posted by: auntykaz at January 2, 2008 6:28 PM

notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 6:02 PM

No I was just trying to be light hearted, it is just a coincidence that for some reason or another most of the males that click on are mostly from NSW. Maybe it just means that there are more male members from NSW than QLD, I don't know it is just an observation.

Posted by: mstingle at January 2, 2008 6:19 PM

notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 4:46 PM

If I feel the man is right for me then my children would have to accept that but believe me I would be watching to see if any of thier behaviour was negative toward the children. I would also say to my new partner to ignore any inapropriate behaviour from my children if ther were any,becuase after all as you said in your posts that you are not their father as long as you like each other and the mother of the children expect her children to show mutual respect otherwise be ignored, unless they have ground to show certain behaviours. We can only try as we go along. My relationship with my children is seperate to my relationship to a new partner, if both I see is right for me, I will do everyting within my power to ensure that noone is put out, however I am not responsible for what happens between my children and future partner. My children know me and what I expect from them and I have seen many new partners either male or female made to feel like second class citizens when it come to children from a relationship and usually it has to do with the parent. Children pick up on what is going on and will play parent against new partner if is has been encourage by the parent.

Posted by: mstingle at January 2, 2008 6:10 PM

Hi MsTingle,

Are you saying that guys from NSW are intelligent and goodlooking because they are checking you out....shame on you and your narcissism!!!! Obviously you are not talking about me though, but I hate being in the majority anyway.

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 6:02 PM

Hi abckenny,

Thanks mate, though I think I have just been scratched off all of the "favourites" lists of all women with children here on RSVP.

Hi Auntykaz,

My father is not that noble he needed a woman in his life - finding a new mother for his kids was a lame excuse to make him feel better about the whole deal; though it didn't stop him attempting to force them on us.

He did remarry when I was about 19, and still is. Without trying to be too prejudiced, she's a cow, but they work well together so good luck to him (at least some other poor old bastard doesn't have to put up with her; or him for that matter)!! Just for the record, I treat her with respect and civility (well, civility anyway), though I cant stand her.

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 5:56 PM

notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 4:20 PM

There seem to be a lot of intelligent good looking men from NSW. Most of the ones that check me out seem to be from that state.

Posted by: mstingle at January 2, 2008 5:55 PM

When children are involved it does get really complicated. I didn't introduce them to my ex-partner until we'd been dating more than 6 months. His son, being very young, obviously saw me as a threat and insisted on throwing tantrums and monopolising Dad as much as he could - I just let it slide - what more can I do? Mine accepted him and went with the flow, being a little more "mature".

However, one concern I have now with a very stunning teenager is if I was to date a younger man I'd be forever worrying!!!!

When I was younger (a lot younger!) my mother bought home a couple of different men (not at the same time!) and I disliked them on sight...they hadn't even opened their mouths, just didn't like the fact that she was, in my eyes, replacing my late father. Of course now, in hindsight, I was very narrow minded (excusable in a 17 year old I'd be hoping), and hope my children don't see my wanting a relationship as that. They have a great relationship with their dad, and I get along with him fine too, so maybe that helps....it's a complicated world we live in! If my children absolutely hated the person I was involved with then I'd have to respect that, try and work through it, but ultimately, they come first.

Posted by: wishfulthinker03 at January 2, 2008 5:47 PM

notgodsgift, isn't it better to be upfront and honest though?
what you say isn't blunt, well l don't think so, merely honest and no nonsense.
As for the thing with your dad, that maybe was a generationial response??

Back in those days l think it may have been more common for the spouse left behind to find a "replacement" wife / husband and have heard anecdotal tales of this happening.

These days l guess with expression of feelings more the norm, along with greater flexibility in workplaces in regards to childfriendly working hours, the need for a "replacement" is not quite as there as it may once have been.

So tell me did your dad every remarry in the end???............K

Posted by: auntykaz at January 2, 2008 5:39 PM

Very well answered Bob.

Posted by: abckenny at January 2, 2008 5:33 PM

Hi Auntykaz,

Difficult for me to answer as I dont have kids, but I think that the first thing I would do is explain to them that I was not trying to replace their mother (and that dead or still alive, she would always be their mother).

To me it would be about telling them up front (before I even started looking) that I needed the company of someone for myself but, like that person or hate her, I expected them to treat her with civility (as I would treat their partner choices with civility).

I guess my answer basically says "screw you kids, my life and I deserve happiness too", but pre-warning them and letting them know that I was not looking for a replacement for their mother.

From my own personal experience I had no problem with my father having a wife, I had a problem with him and her deciding that she was to be my replacement mother.

Just to make a point, should I meet a woman whose children have a problem with me my attitude is "I am not here for you, nor to replace your father in any way, I am here to make your mother happy, and I hope that you could respect that. If you dont like me,thats OK, but if I make your mother happy, are you willing to destroy that"?

I guess its very blunt, but I am no diplomat either.

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 5:21 PM

Hi Guys&Gals

I'm not much of a blogger and haven't posted here before. I hope my comments haven't bee already well covered as I have only skimmed this blog.

I have been an active member for just over 3 months and have met about a dozen ladies. Many of these seem to have fallen into the category of "would like a man but only if he will fit into my already full life, and probably only part time at that".

Now I am looking for a committed best friend/lover relationship but really can't (partly due to boat commitments at this stage) see myself moving very far from here. (Port Stephens) I have only seen about 3 profiles saying "willing to relocate for the right man". It is to be expected that most people in the 55+ age group will have some family ties, but most seem absolutely rooted where their families are - even though there is no guarantee that the children will not move at some stage. How do we negotiate this minefield? Is it unreasonable to suggest that you should not try to live your life through your children and grandchildren?

Now ducking for cover!

Posted by: ontrack43 at January 2, 2008 5:03 PM

Notgodsgift that is a really difficult question that you pose.

May l ask how would you handle it if it was the reverse??

I know that l would find it hard to deal with, and l myself have adult children who live with me.

I have been fortunate in that they have said to me that if l am happy that is all they care about. They acknowledge that l am entitled to enjoy my life as l also encourage them to enjoy theirs.

Just curious to know thats all........K

Posted by: auntykaz at January 2, 2008 4:57 PM

Hi MsTingle,

What would you do if you met the most awesome guy in all ways, but your children would not accept him? Would you continue to see him or would you end it?

If you end it, then you are saying to your kids "well, I can never have happiness again, because you wont allow it", and, if you dont end it you are saying "bugger you, this is my life and I am entitled to some happiness".

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 4:46 PM

Hi MsTingle,

I am a bit the same as you on this age thing. I see a profile that says 50 and I wont contact; I look at it as respecting the persons requirements. If they contact me fine, but otherwise a no go zone for me.

I look at the 18-100 people a bit differently in that they are maybe not really caring about the age factor - some people genuinely dont worry about those things.

The "dont come bleating" refers to those that set themselves up for hurt, then will call all men bastards (or conversely, all women bitches, as we have seen from some of the males bloggers). The old saying (have posted this before too) "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me", seems appropriate.

Some people tend to blame others for the mistakes they continually make themselves; if you put yourself in the position of being used, guess what, someone's going to use you!! We are all entitled to make mistakes, but some people make a habit of it then blame everyone but themselves!!

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 4:20 PM

notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 3:35 PM

Children very important that we do all we can to protect them as well as being happy ourselves.

Children are also individuals and some would be happy to see you happy as long as the person treated them well also, then other children it would not matter if you brought home the most awesome person that would suit you and be respectful to them.

I think you 1st check that things are going swimmingly for the both of you, get a good idea what they are like inregard to how they would posible recieve your children, then regardless of age, colour, size and anything else that should not matter to anyone but you go for it.

If they are the right one, it should be fine of course it will not stop children that are apposed to anyone no matter who you get with. The most important thing do not settle for someone that is not right for you and you seriously should not have brought home for the children to be involved with in the first place and if you do then only realise after the children have met them, finish the relationship before too much damage is done.

Posted by: mstingle at January 2, 2008 4:16 PM

notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 2:18 PM

Sorry good post except "don't come bleeting".

It is hard isn't it we have to put a profile up and it does not tell the whole story, then we have to choose what we want in a partner. I know sometimes I look at a profile and a male has chosen an age group up to 45. I am 46 so I think no not going to give a kiss or what ever. They, I, everyone has to put an age limit to hopefully attract someone suitable. I would not respong to any male or send a kiss to any male that had age up to 1OOplus form only 18. I thougth no go they are after something that I am not interested in discussing but when I have since seen so many, I have thougth may be they have just not choosen an age group no to limit themselves and that is what comes up if you don't choose, don't know I will have to look at it.

Posted by: mstingle at January 2, 2008 3:56 PM

notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 2:18 PM

Good post.

Posted by: mstingle at January 2, 2008 3:46 PM

wishfulthinker:

Yes it is interesting the affect people can have on one self, when they choose to give negative feed back such as you ex did. If you truely want a man a certain height stick to it, your not being shallow we all have wants. however if it it just because of your ex I am sorry. There are men out there that would find your height no matter what it was acceptable and there are men that love taller women than themselves, infact they have an attraction to taller women seeing them as godesses. The thing is all of us have qualities that the sex that we are trying to attact find rather irrisistable, it is just that sometimes we date those that are not those who we should be dating, we waste time on people that do not concentrate on our good qualities. Also the these people that often find fault with us, why are they with us then, go figure.

Posted by: mstingle at January 2, 2008 3:38 PM

Hi Toadkisser,

Good for you on all fronts; you do what works for you otherwise its all very pointless searching. If a guy wants you to change, why bother meeting YOU in the first place - hope you break his snout too!!!

I agree about the age factor with kids; I think that boys especially really get uncomfortable with the fact that someone their own age is sleeping with their mother... cant say how girls feel, I've never been one!!

i was in the reverse situation when my mother died when I was 10 and my father was starting to see other women. I didn't mind that he was seeing other women, I minded that it was quite obvious that he was trying to replace my mother... that wasn't going to happen. He actually brought a couple of them home to meet us and I hated them all (because they thought they were going to be my mother); except for one HOT Spanish lady who was about 10 years younger than dad and said straight out she just wanted him for sex!!

My brother and I wanted dad to just go for it, but the old bastard was too self-righteous and flicked her. My sisters were cool with her too, but also hated the other women he met. I guess the point is, it was dad so...who cares if she was younger, but I think (I know) if it were my mother it would have been very different.

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 3:35 PM

Hi all,

Well. What a can of worms that has turned out to be. For me the age thing is a non-event. I don't care if he is 25 and makes me laugh until I wet myself. That is way more attractive than the guy you have force conversation out of or who spends the date talking about 'us' and 'we' in relation to his ex-wife/partner. The age factor is more relevant to my children and their feelings. My teenage son, I feel, would be uncomfortable with a man close to his age dating his mother. I feel having children brought into this mix is a tad more complicated than just the age factor. Has anyone been in this situation and if so how did you deal with it? What were the reactions of your family and peers? Shock, horror, good-on-you? What do you do if you really like the guy and your kids don't like him? I have to admit I am loathe to introduce anyone to my children until I am absolutely sure and even then it is not a guaranteed thing. I am lucky in that I do not look my age but I would punch any guy in the nose if he dared suggest any sort of plastic surgery. I would love to host a get together for the bloggers if anyone is interested. Have a great day - stay cool.

Posted by: toadkisser at January 2, 2008 3:00 PM

ODE/OME:

Many many thanks mate for the Hefner comparison, but it's just a tad off the mark:

* My pad is not a bunny mansion. It's a rented half-house/semi-detached, And that smallish space is already 90% taken up with bookcases,filing cabinets, chin-high stacks of wheeled tubs, plus 100+ archive boxes, full of my past and present lives. With narrow walk-through canyons in between.

Cost me $2500 to move here 3 years ago. Plus the $10,000 'pay-cash' cheque that a mover labourer wrote for himself out of the back of my unused next cheque book. (Only had $600 left in the bank that day, so they caught him at the teller, later that arvo.)

Some of the archive boxes include the info to let me supply matching spare parts for hundreds of different special machines that I've designed and supplied since 1983. Often only asked for after 15+ years, but I aim to supply replacements from as far away as Melbourne in 48 hours if not needing to be specially made - if so, inside a week ex one of my local subbies, using my stored blueprints.

There are 2 comfy recliners side by side in front of the stereo, but no TV. (My landlord's TV aerial is 2mtrs high; the neighbours' 12 to 15mtrs, to see over/round Mt Gravatt.) Dining room table buried, but 2 of the desks in the office (originally sitting room) are available for lunch or dinner for two, dining at 'separate tables'.

One king-single bed, just big enough for crown-prince-size me alone. I had a nightmare on Saturday night (muggers in NY Central Park) and while fighting them off with fists and boots, threw myself out of bed and cracked a rib when it landed first, on the sturdy metal bedside bin, located to drop-deliver my junk mail one by one. (Since moved further away.)

Almost sore enough to keep me from tennis the next evening, and still very tender.

Rest of bedroom taken up with a built-in wardrobe for my 50+ shirts, (my only extravagance) plus 15 more the size below (for next spring); my winter-sunlit poetry-writing desk, 3 bookcases, and a chest of drawers full of 10.000+ photos, mainly small aide-memoire details of past special products.

Spare bed up on edge in second bedroom, till I find time to throw out enough past lives to make room to put it down flat - my 4th NY resulution for 2008, after losing 20kg, making more money, and making more people happier.

* No hot and cold running bunnies, short on both years and clothing, but large in both simultaneous numbers and frontal overhang.

Only my lovely-personality 60-something book-keeper/clerk one day a week, mainly working on my computer on the third desk, and my lovely-personality 60-something storebod on a different day of the week, mainly working in my large crammed-full warehouse and assembly shop, one floor down (previously rumpus room and garage.)

Both of them female, so there's the only similarity with Hugh Hefner.

Hope this hasn't been too boring to third parties - just needed to explain to ODE how far short of the Hef I really fall - except that I don't get MY income from pimping for donations to the various Palmer-family sperm banks located all over the world.

Posted by: timewarp1 at January 2, 2008 2:57 PM

Hi All,

This thing about profile information (I noted the chatter about older guys saying they want kids, but dont really). That is a bad one, but goes with everyone liking "Shawshank Redemption"....monkey see, monkey do. RSVP encourages you to read other profiles in order to get ideas...some people have no imagination, so look for the obvious popularist themes and include them.

Not being a particularly paternal type of guy, I cant speak for others, but generally I would say that there would be few guys 45+ who would be looking for kids of their own now; though they would not worry if you already have kids. I have put "I dont mind if you have kids", which is true; but I am not the sort of guy that is going to try to replace their father either; they already have one, good or bad, dead or alive.

Bob

Posted by: notgodsgift at January 2, 2008 2:33 PM

Hi All,

Just to wade in to this age debate.....I see older women looking for guys miles younger and my first impression....she's looking for a physical relationship first and foremost....good luck to her, but dont start bleating about players if you end up getting used, abused and thrown on the scrapheap once that younger guy is no longer amused with the "older woman" thing.

I dont know about other guys, but I set my age limits because of my perceptions of the people whom I have met during my life, and how I relate to them. Generally, I meet and get along with younger women because they are out there in my real social life, and I have great rapport with them. Any women I meet my age (very few and far between) are usually staid and unsociable, generally. Therefore my perceptions are determined by whom I am meeting; and I therefore determine that I will probably be suited to a particular age range in women. However, I am also a realist and know that there are always exceptions to every rule, thus I allow for that.

I guess what I am saying is that we are all here for our own motives, so we shouldn't be so quick to criticise someone else's motives. If an older woman is looking for a younger guy and I am attracted to her profile/photo (whatever), then I would be an idiot to think that she would want anything to do with me, so I dont "Kiss" her...pointless exercise. I may think that she is heading for a fall, but that is her life and decision; its not for me to criticise her because of that...live and let live. Different scenario though if I know her and we are friends...then I would feel that I have to say my piece, but up to her if she ignores that, its her life...but again, dont come bleating if it all turns pear shaped.